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+--- Thread: Was there an assassin on Grant's train? (/thread-2471.html)
RE: Was there an assassin on Grant's train? - John Fazio - 07-16-2015 09:45 AM
(07-16-2015 09:16 AM)Wild Bill Wrote: I agree with John that there was an assassin on the train. We may disagree as to who it was, however, . . .
Wild Bill:
Please tell us why you believe it was John Surratt. If that is your belief, how do you account for the four or five witnessses who put him in Elmira on the 14th? i have a great doubt about his being in Elmira, but my doubt is not the issue.
John
RE: Was there an assassin on Grant's train? - Wild Bill - 07-16-2015 10:29 AM
Read my book Confederate Freedom Fighter, which is at the Surratt bookstore.
RE: Was there an assassin on Grant's train? - RJNorton - 07-16-2015 12:31 PM
In her memoirs Julia Grant wrote:
"At about midday, a rap at my door was followed, in answer to my "come in," by the entrance of a man dressed in light-colored corduroy coat and trousers and with rather a shabby hat of the same color. I remarked his dress; as he came in, I started up and said: "I thought it was the bellboy with cards. What do you want?" He reddened and, bowing, said: "This is Mrs. Grant?" I bowed assent. "Mrs. Lincoln sends me, Madam, with her compliments, to say she will call for you at exactly eight o'clock to go to the theater." To this, I replied with some feeling (not liking either the looks of the messenger or the message, thinking the former savored of discourtesy and the latter seemed like a command), "You may return with my compliments to Mrs. Lincoln and say I regret that as General Grant and I intend leaving the city this afternoon, we will not, therefore, be here to accompany the President and Mrs. Lincoln to the theater." He hesitated a moment, then urged: "Madam, the papers announce that General Grant will be with the President tonight at the theater." I said to this: "You deliver my message to Mrs. Lincoln as I have given it to you. You may go now." He smiled as he turned to leave. I have thought since that this man was one of the band of conspirators in that night's sad tragedy, and that he was not sent by Mrs. Lincoln at all. I am perfectly sure that he, with three others, one of them [John Wilkes] Booth himself, sat opposite me and my party at luncheon that
day."
In his book John Fazio speculates that Mary Lincoln's "messenger" might have been David Herold. If this be true then Booth could have known the Grants were leaving town a lot earlier than most books indicate (although, at that time of day, he would not know where they were going). Still this knowledge would have given Booth more time to arrange a potential Grant assassination. Most books indicate Booth didn't find out the Grants were leaving until late in the afternoon when he saw their carriage go by while talking to John Mathews.
If the man were not David Herold who could it have been? Did Mary Lincoln send a messenger to the Willard Hotel at midday?
RE: Was there an assassin on Grant's train? - Wild Bill - 07-16-2015 01:05 PM
Mrs Grant probably would not have asked Mary Lincoln anything after witnessing the row at City Point over Mrs Genl Ord being too close in proximity to Pres Lincoln
RE: Was there an assassin on Grant's train? - Susan Higginbotham - 07-16-2015 01:21 PM
I think Mrs. Grant's instincts were spot-on. Can't imagine Mary Lincoln sending a messenger in a shabby hat to Mrs. Grant (or to anyone).
RE: Was there an assassin on Grant's train? - John Fazio - 07-16-2015 02:12 PM
(07-16-2015 10:29 AM)Wild Bill Wrote: Read my book Confederate Freedom Fighter, which is at the Surratt bookstore.
Wild Bill:
I read two of your books--The Last Confederate Heroes and Sic Semper Tyrannus, which I still have. Is it in either of those?
John
RE: Was there an assassin on Grant's train? - Wild Bill - 07-16-2015 02:45 PM
John, Nope. This is different
RE: Was there an assassin on Grant's train? - HerbS - 07-16-2015 03:36 PM
I agree with your opinion John!
RE: Was there an assassin on Grant's train? - John Fazio - 07-17-2015 08:53 AM
(07-16-2015 12:37 PM)Rosieo Wrote:(07-16-2015 12:31 PM)RJNorton Wrote: In her memoirs Julia Grant wrote:Seems to me Mrs. Grant would have been wise to ask Mrs. Lincoln.
"At about midday, a rap at my door was followed, in answer to my "come in," by the entrance of a man dressed in light-colored corduroy coat and trousers and with rather a shabby hat of the same color. I remarked his dress; as he came in, I started up and said: "I thought it was the bellboy with cards. What do you want?" He reddened and, bowing, said: "This is Mrs. Grant?" I bowed assent. "Mrs. Lincoln sends me, Madam, with her compliments, to say she will call for you at exactly eight o'clock to go to the theater." To this, I replied with some feeling (not liking either the looks of the messenger or the message, thinking the former savored of discourtesy and the latter seemed like a command), "You may return with my compliments to Mrs. Lincoln and say I regret that as General Grant and I intend leaving the city this afternoon, we will not, therefore, be here to accompany the President and Mrs. Lincoln to the theater." He hesitated a moment, then urged: "Madam, the papers announce that General Grant will be with the President tonight at the theater." I said to this: "You deliver my message to Mrs. Lincoln as I have given it to you. You may go now." He smiled as he turned to leave. I have thought since that this man was one of the band of conspirators in that night's sad tragedy, and that he was not sent by Mrs. Lincoln at all. I am perfectly sure that he, with three others, one of them [John Wilkes] Booth himself, sat opposite me and my party at luncheon that
day."
In his book John Fazio speculates that Mary Lincoln's "messenger" might have been David Herold. If this be true then Booth could have known the Grants were leaving town a lot earlier than most books indicate (although, at that time of day, he would not know where they were going). Still this knowledge would have given Booth more time to arrange a potential Grant assassination. Most books indicate Booth didn't find out the Grants were leaving until late in the afternoon when he saw their carriage go by while talking to John Mathews.
If the man were not David Herold who could it have been? Did Mary Lincoln send a messenger to the Willard Hotel at midday?
Roger and Rosieo:
I believe "speculates" doesn't quite describe my opinion as to the identity of the messenger who called on Julia Grant on the 14th. I am, rather, convinced that it was Herold, largely because Julia was convinced, as evidenced by her two statements that "I am perfectly sure that he, with three others...sat opposite me and my party at luncheon that day" and "I thought I recognized in one of (the four attendees at the luncheon) the messenger of the morning..." Doubtless, Herold told Booth what Julia had said to him. Booth now knew that Grant wasn't going to be at the theater that night, a monkey wrench in his machinery. If Grant was to be killed, therefore, which was without question Booth's intention, he had to know where Grant was going to be that night. Thus the attendance of Booth, Herold and two others (probably Powell and Atzerodt) at Julia's luncheon (after she was watched) and thus Booth's strange behavior there, as described by Julia, namely "(he) played with his soup spoon, sometimes filling it and holding it half-lifted to his mouth, but never tasting it. This occurred many times. He also seemed very intent on what we and the children were saying. I thought he was crazy..." Obviously, Booth was eavesdropping in an attempt to find out where his intended victim was going to be that night. Just as obviously, he was not successful. Thus, when, by pure chance, he saw them in a carriage on the way to the depot (after Mathews drew his attention to them), he galloped past them in an apparent attempt to ascertain that it was in fact they who had been spotted by Mathews and also, perhaps, to ascertain their destination. He may or may not have determined that they were on the way to the depot, but even if he did, that might not be enough to know of Grant's whereabouts that night; he needed to know where they were going and therefore what train they would take. Then he got lucky (again): he rode back to Willard's and inquired of someone there (probably the desk clerk) as to the destination of the Grants and was finally apprised of the same. (See p. 258 of Decapitating the Union and the two citations given.) Now he knew where they were going and therefore what train they would be on. At this point, it was a relatively simple matter to arrange for a co-conspirator to purchase a ticket for the same train, which, I am convinced, he did. Couple all this with the fact that Grant was often mentioned by Confederate operatives in Canada, as well as in letters that came into the possession of the Bureau of Military Justice, as an intended victim, and with the fact of the letter received by Grant shortly after the assassination, written by someone who claimed to have been the would-be assassin, and we have a very strong case for someone being on the train. For me, the contents of the letter excludes John Surratt. It wasn't his style to thank God for failure. There were plenty of others whom Booth was in contact and who could have been assigned for the purpose besides his action team.
John
RE: Was there an assassin on Grant's train? - L Verge - 07-17-2015 03:02 PM
Somewhere in this thread several weeks ago, we were getting into a heated discussion as to the "humanity" of John Surratt. I'm too lazy to try and find the exact postings, but I was reminded of it today while doing some paper shifting on my desk.
I found a copy of a letter that I had pulled from the files several years ago while trying to track down Mrs. Surratt's rosary. The letter was written to James O. Hall in 1975, and pertains to his inquiry regarding papers that Mrs. John Surratt, Jr. may have passed down to family members. The writer of said letter was a granddaughter of John Surratt, and his widow lived with this lady's family until she died. Unfortunately, she knew of no papers being left behind.
She did make a comment to Mr. Hall, however, that is reflective of John Surratt's later years:
"Anna's children - all dead now - may have had them. Anna married a 'Yankee' officer & lived quietly away from the family. Her daughter Clara & my aunt were close so I do have the rosary beads that went to the gallows [we don't think so...] & a couple of pieces of jewelry. But no facts.
"You see we were made to feel that this was a skeleton in the closet - due probably to the emotional strain under which my grandfather labored all his life - and the attitude of the public.
"I've often wished I could somehow portray John, the eager young man, who was fighting for a cause - just as young people of any generation do. He made the mistake of letting Booth (reckless, drank too much, jealous - but not all bad) get him into bad company. The consequences were not considered. The consequences shadowed the rest of his life. His amends were in the form of the loving father & husband. Many people tried to help him and his brood with contributions of money, food, etc."
From what I have learned from later descendants, the John and Mary Victorine Surratt rose above this and became good, middle-class citizens -- but still avoided talking about 1865.
RE: Was there an assassin on Grant's train? - Pamela - 07-17-2015 03:31 PM
(07-17-2015 03:02 PM)L Verge Wrote: Somewhere in this thread several weeks ago, we were getting into a heated discussion as to the "humanity" of John Surratt. I'm too lazy to try and find the exact postings, but I was reminded of it today while doing some paper shifting on my desk.
I found a copy of a letter that I had pulled from the files several years ago while trying to track down Mrs. Surratt's rosary. The letter was written to James O. Hall in 1975, and pertains to his inquiry regarding papers that Mrs. John Surratt, Jr. may have passed down to family members. The writer of said letter was a granddaughter of John Surratt, and his widow lived with this lady's family until she died. Unfortunately, she knew of no papers being left behind.
She did make a comment to Mr. Hall, however, that is reflective of John Surratt's later years:
"Anna's children - all dead now - may have had them. Anna married a 'Yankee' officer & lived quietly away from the family. Her daughter Clara & my aunt were close so I do have the rosary beads that went to the gallows [we don't think so...] & a couple of pieces of jewelry. But no facts.
"You see we were made to feel that this was a skeleton in the closet - due probably to the emotional strain under which my grandfather labored all his life - and the attitude of the public.
"I've often wished I could somehow portray John, the eager young man, who was fighting for a cause - just as young people of any generation do. He made the mistake of letting Booth (reckless, drank too much, jealous - but not all bad) get him into bad company. The consequences were not considered. The consequences shadowed the rest of his life. His amends were in the form of the loving father & husband. Many people tried to help him and his brood with contributions of money, food, etc."
From what I have learned from later descendants, the John and Mary Victorine Surratt rose above this and became good, middle-class citizens -- but still avoided talking about 1865.
Of course, there was the Hanson Hiss interview which revealed that John Surratt, after all those years, took no responsibility whatsoever for his actions that contributed to the murder of arguably the greatest President we ever had, did not defend his mother, and as usual slandered a fine human being--Louis Weichmann. And since he absolved himself of all responsibility for the crime, he took no responsibility for the suffering and destruction of so many lives that resulted.
RE: Was there an assassin on Grant's train? - L Verge - 07-17-2015 06:50 PM
Pardon me for saying this, but you are really hooked on Weichmann! Are you planning a biography on him?
I am not anti-Weichmann (and I doubt that few of his detractors are). I said from the beginning that I think he practiced the first law of nature - self-preservation. I doubt that Weichmann ever thought that his testimony would actually set a precedence for the government to hang a woman. In that, he and John Surratt were alike - they both got outfoxed by the U.S. government.
Likewise, I am not pro-Surratt. I think that Surratt dropped out of Booth's plans, was sent north on Confederate business, and then listened to advice to stay in hiding because his mother was being used as a decoy to get to him. I think Stanton and Holt would have hanged both of them if he returned.
We will never know for certain how much of Louis's complaints was based on true events or a bad case of nerves after 1867. However, he did seem to do well for himself afterwards - first with the support of Stanton and Holt and then with establishing his own business.
RE: Was there an assassin on Grant's train? - Jim Page - 07-17-2015 07:17 PM
(07-17-2015 06:50 PM)L Verge Wrote: I think Stanton and Holt would have hanged both of them if he returned.
Well, Laurie, you're the first person I've heard that from, and I bet a dollar to a donut you're correct.
The views expressed in this thread have been interesting and are part of the assassination I've mulled over quite a bit. Weichmann strikes me as a Don Knotts type, minus the humor.
John Surratt, Jr., reminds me of several people I've known who are big shots once the peril is past, or beforehand, but nowhere to be found when push comes to shove.
I'm most sympathetic to Anna Surratt; one can only imagine her anguish and feelings of futility.
--Jim
RE: Was there an assassin on Grant's train? - Eva Elisabeth - 07-17-2015 07:36 PM
(07-17-2015 08:18 AM)Rosieo Wrote: Mrs. Lincoln wrote about the assassination in letters, right?Can you please tell what/in which letters she wrote about the assassination? Ore someone else? My memory completely seems to fail, I was sure she only made one vague reference in one letter afterwards. Thanks!
RE: Was there an assassin on Grant's train? - L Verge - 07-17-2015 08:45 PM
(07-17-2015 07:17 PM)Jim Page Wrote:(07-17-2015 06:50 PM)L Verge Wrote: I think Stanton and Holt would have hanged both of them if he returned.
Well, Laurie, you're the first person I've heard that from, and I bet a dollar to a donut you're correct.
The views expressed in this thread have been interesting and are part of the assassination I've mulled over quite a bit. Weichmann strikes me as a Don Knotts type, minus the humor.
John Surratt, Jr., reminds me of several people I've known who are big shots once the peril is past, or beforehand, but nowhere to be found when push comes to shove.
I'm most sympathetic to Anna Surratt; one can only imagine her anguish and feelings of futility.
--Jim
I think your assessment of all is spot on. I know that there is a gang of us who has always compared Weichmann with the the sixth grader who is the last one called by the captains to participate in the ball game at recess...
He was afraid not to tell what he thought he had observed - and in doing so ended up living in fear (a lot of which was likely imaginary).