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+--- Thread: If Lincoln had not died (/thread-583.html)
RE: If Lincoln had not died - BettyO - 01-06-2013 05:12 PM
Wonder how many folk also know that Queen Victoria's Prime Minister Benjamin Disraeli, was also Jewish?
Unfortunately for him and countless others, he had to renounce his Jewish faith in order to attend college AND be elected to Parliament - or so I was told....
RE: If Lincoln had not died - Liz Rosenthal - 01-06-2013 05:43 PM
It was suggested that we don't have any significant racism anymore because we've got a black president and because we've had some black cabinet members. Please spare us the Fox News talking points! In my life, and I live in the Northeast, I've seen and heard racist things from friends, loved ones, fellow students and near-strangers for as long as long as I can remember. The racism in our recent political discourse was more than just a few "code words." What we've had are code statements, code paragraphs, code diatribes. Since Obama has been elected, racism has actually become much more openly expressed - the reaction by a very large segment of the white population to having a black president, with said reaction being aided and abetted by numerous, amoral media types.
By the way, as a Jewish person, I wouldn't give any credit to Jefferson Davis for having a Jewish cabinet member in his cabinet. He was still objectionable. (Anyway, as was pointed out, Judah Benjamin did convert to Christianity.)
Regarding what Lincoln may have done to assist the freedmen once the war was over is hard to say, but I'm pretty sure he wouldn't have opposed the 15th Amendment affording them the right to vote, as Andrew Johnson had done. However, as I was just remarking to my husband today, one big reason why Lincoln had been in favor of gradual, compensated emancipation for so long was his concern for what would become of the former slaves. He hoped to see former slaves and former owners "grow out of" their former relations and into new ones. But the tide of history wasn't interested in waiting for this sort of solution.
RE: If Lincoln had not died - Thomas Thorne - 01-06-2013 07:20 PM
(01-06-2013 04:31 PM)Linda Anderson Wrote:(01-06-2013 12:23 PM)Thomas Thorne Wrote: Dear Wild Bill
The new year has only begun and you are contemplating giving unnecessary work to EMS people-heart attack-and morgue attendants-suicide. We need you.
Dear Rob
I must respectfully disagree with yr statement about our current struggles with racism. Its prevalence today is greatly exaggerated. Suppose you had told Jefferson Davis in 1861 that the 2 major party candidates for president in 2012 were an African American incumbent and a Mormon. The 2 VP candidates were both Roman Catholics. The African American was reelected. Given his relative inexperience observers thought he would not been nominated by his party in 2008 if he were white and the nomination would have gone to a more qualified woman.
In 2012 all nine members of the United States Supreme Court were Roman Catholics.
Please quantify the amount of smelling salts the EMS people-who would otherwise be devoted to caring for Wild Bill's rhetorical injuries-would need to revive Jefferson Davis?
Tom
There are three Jewish justices on the Supreme Court today: Justices Ginsberg, Breyer and Kagan with Kagan being the last justice appointed to the Supreme Court in 2010. I don't know if Jefferson Davis would have needed smelling salts for the three Jewish justices as his Secretary of State, Judah Benjamin, was Jewish.
My goof. What I meant to say was that there were no Protestants on The US Supreme Court.
Tom
RE: If Lincoln had not died - My Name Is Kate - 01-06-2013 08:14 PM
(01-06-2013 02:40 PM)Rob Wick Wrote: In a Democracy it matters a great deal.
That would be another way of phrasing my question: Do we still live in a democracy...?
RE: If Lincoln had not died - Linda Anderson - 01-06-2013 08:41 PM
(01-06-2013 07:20 PM)Thomas Thorne Wrote:(01-06-2013 04:31 PM)Linda Anderson Wrote:(01-06-2013 12:23 PM)Thomas Thorne Wrote: .
There are three Jewish justices on the Supreme Court today: Justices Ginsberg, Breyer and Kagan with Kagan being the last justice appointed to the Supreme Court in 2010. I don't know if Jefferson Davis would have needed smelling salts for the three Jewish justices as his Secretary of State, Judah Benjamin, was Jewish.
My goof. What I meant to say was that there were no Protestants on The US Supreme Court.
Tom
No problem, Tom. Thanks for mentioning the make-up of the Supreme Court to begin with. I didn't realize there were no Protestants currently serving on the Court.
Nancy, Betty pointed out that it was Disraeli, not Benjamin, who renounced his Jewish faith to attend college and be elected to Parliament.
I found an article about Benjamin in the Jewish Virtual Library. http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/biography/Benjamin.html
"After Benjamin resigned as Confederate Secretary of War, Davis appointed him Secretary of State. Eli Evans, Benjamin’s most perceptive biographer, observed that 'Benjamin served Davis as his Sephardic ancestors had served the kings of Europe for hundreds of years, as a kind of court Jew to the Confederacy. An insecure President [Davis] was able to trust him completely because, among other things, no Jew could ever challenge him for leadership of the Confederacy.' Near the end of the war, Benjamin privately persuaded Robert E. Lee and other Confederate military leaders that the South’s best chance was to emancipate any slave who volunteered to fight for the Confederacy. When Benjamin repeated this proposal to an audience of 10,000 persons in Richmond in 1864, his remarks lit a firestorm. Georgian Howell Cobb observed, 'If slaves will make good soldiers, our whole theory of slavery is wrong.' Benjamin’s idea, however valuable, was rejected as politically impossible. As Evans observes, 'The South chose [instead] to go down in defeat with the institution of slavery intact.'"
RE: If Lincoln had not died - BettyO - 01-06-2013 09:10 PM
Unfortunately, laws in Britain at the time required people of the Jewish faith to give up their religion in order to attend college - a horrid compensation just to achieve an education. Things were no better here in America as well - many of other faiths were also prosecuted, denied education and other basic necessities and there was even a political party, The Know Nothing party, which basically was out to annihilate persons who were NOT white, Anglo Saxon protestants! The Irish and Italians were treated horribly as well in this country. Chinese were basically put into separate spheres and treated as some sort of exotic creatures. We have come a long way, but discrimination still exists and in the 19th Century, it was unfortunately rampant, not only abroad - but in the "cradle of Democracy" as well.
RE: If Lincoln had not died - Gene C - 01-06-2013 10:46 PM
(01-06-2013 05:43 PM)Nancy Sparrow Wrote: Please spare us the Fox News talking points!
Sorry Nancy, but sometimes I like Fox News. They give a different perspective than many of the other networks.
I am not a President Obama fan, (I'm sure he's a nice guy, I just don't care for him as president) and I'm not racist.
However, I did agree with "some" of the things you said
So is there's still hope for me?
RE: If Lincoln had not died - My Name Is Kate - 01-07-2013 03:16 AM
(01-05-2013 11:55 AM)william l. richter Wrote: Lincoln, whether one agrees with him or not (and I do not)...
I'm wondering exactly what you are referring to here. Did you mean something specific, or that you don't agree with Lincoln in general?
RE: If Lincoln had not died - RJNorton - 01-07-2013 07:16 AM
Some folks have written me about wanting to read Lloyd Lewis's presentation, but they had problems opening the file Rob sent me which I then posted. Here's another place to read Lewis's speech: a book titled Abraham Lincoln: His Life, Work, and Character edited by Edward Wagenknecht.
RE: If Lincoln had not died - Rob Wick - 01-07-2013 10:44 AM
Anyone who wants the PDF can PM me their e-mail address and I'll be happy to send it to them.
Best
Rob
RE: If Lincoln had not died - wsanto - 01-07-2013 11:44 AM
(01-06-2013 05:43 PM)Nancy Sparrow Wrote: It was suggested that we don't have any significant racism anymore because we've got a black president and because we've had some black cabinet members. Please spare us the Fox News talking points! In my life, and I live in the Northeast, I've seen and heard racist things from friends, loved ones, fellow students and near-strangers for as long as long as I can remember. The racism in our recent political discourse was more than just a few "code words." What we've had are code statements, code paragraphs, code diatribes. Since Obama has been elected, racism has actually become much more openly expressed - the reaction by a very large segment of the white population to having a black president, with said reaction being aided and abetted by numerous, amoral media types.
Please spare us the MSNBC news talking points. Unfortunately, in my opinion, racism today has more to do with race-baiting than with truly malicious racism limiting opportunities for minorities.
RE: If Lincoln had not died - J. Beckert - 01-07-2013 12:10 PM
I agree with some points here and am a Fox News fan, but out of respect for Roger and his efforts here, I think this thread is going in the wrong direction. Before a dispute arises, I think it would be best to stay on track with the original question here. Thanks.
RE: If Lincoln had not died - Linda Anderson - 01-07-2013 12:17 PM
(01-07-2013 12:10 PM)J. Beckert Wrote: I agree with some points here and am a Fox News fan, but out of respect for Roger and his efforts here, I think this thread is going in the wrong direction. Before a dispute arises, I think it would be best to stay on track with the original question here. Thanks.
I agree with Joe.
RE: If Lincoln had not died - BettyO - 01-07-2013 12:18 PM
Amen, Cardinal Joe! Well said....
RE: If Lincoln had not died - Gene C - 01-07-2013 12:22 PM
You are right Joe.
(He reluctantly admitted)As my good friend Maxwell Smart would say "Sorry about that Chief"