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+--- Forum: Assassination (/forum-5.html)
+--- Thread: Louis Weichmann (/thread-525.html)
RE: Louis Weichmann - RJNorton - 02-08-2015 09:33 AM
Scott, I just converted the files to .wav files - hope they work now. If not, Eva or I can send you the files via e-mail attachment. The original format is .mp3, and in the past, some folks' computers have had trouble with .mp3 files.
RE: Louis Weichmann - Rogerm - 02-08-2015 09:40 AM
In German, "ei" is always equivalent to the long "i" in English, whereas, the German "ie" is the same as the English long "e."
RE: Louis Weichmann - Rsmyth - 02-08-2015 11:21 AM
Hello STS Lincolnite - great pic of the house! Do you have the address? I love looking up things like this on google earth to see what kind of a neighborhood Louis walked around in.
RE: Louis Weichmann - Pamela - 02-08-2015 12:17 PM
(02-08-2015 09:09 AM)RJNorton Wrote: Many thanks to Eva for sending the correct pronunciation for Louis J. Weichmann's last name!
Weichmann: CLICK HERE
Wiechmann:CLICK HERE
Of course I've been pronouncing it wrong. Thanks for setting us straight. I wonder if any of his contemporaries pronounced it the German way.
(02-08-2015 08:48 AM)STS Lincolnite Wrote:If and when I get out there I will take you up on your offer!(02-07-2015 10:52 PM)Pamela Wrote: Hi Betty, I agree and want to see the house in person!
Pamela, Let me know if and when you plan a trip to see the house. It is not too far from where I live and I would be happy to be a tour guide of sorts.
RE: Louis Weichmann - Eva Elisabeth - 02-08-2015 12:34 PM
(02-08-2015 09:40 AM)Rogerm Wrote: In German, "ei" is always equivalent to the long "i" in English, whereas, the German "ie" is the same as the English long "e."But there's no English equivalent to the "ch", is it? How would you have described this sound, Roger? (I didn't know, so I recorded.) Am I guessing right that this is the main difference and maybe like a "k" in English?
RE: Louis Weichmann - STS Lincolnite - 02-08-2015 01:16 PM
(02-08-2015 12:34 PM)Eva Elisabeth Wrote:(02-08-2015 09:40 AM)Rogerm Wrote: In German, "ei" is always equivalent to the long "i" in English, whereas, the German "ie" is the same as the English long "e."But there's no English equivalent to the "ch", is it? How would you have described this sound, Roger? (I didn't know, so I recorded.) Am I guessing right that this is the main difference and maybe like a "k" in English?
Yes, like a "k'. That is always how I hear it when "Americanized". I am just getting ready to put up a more lengthy post on the spelling and pronunciation. Should be up in a few minutes.
Alright, so this thread has now migrated to the subject of my article (not yet submitted) on Weichmann. The correct spelling and pronunciation of his name. I will do a somewhat abbreviated synopsis here and if Laurie thinks there is still value in a marginally expanded and cited version for an article submission to the Surratt Courier I will do that as well.
Firstly, whenever deciding what is correct, I think “correct” needs to be defined. For correct spelling, I think it is simple. Whatever Louis Weichmann used and prefered himself. In all his correspondence, the authorship of his book, etc. he uses Weichmann. It should be noted that there is a variant that appeared on his business school letterhead that had only one “n” at the end. I suspect (as did Floyd Risvold) that was a printers error that LJW never bothered to have corrected. I propose the correct spelling as far his surname goes is Weichmann because that is what he preferred. Nothing really new here I don’t think.
For pronunciation, I also think “correct” would be what was individually preferred. As we move forward with pronunciation, it should be noted that LJW’s family name was actually spelled Wiechmann. This is evidenced by its use by all his other family members (father, mother, sisters, brother). It is also spelled that way on their headstones - as well as LJW’s headstone. I suspect that LJW's surviving family spelled it that way on his headstone as it was their preference and the true familial spelling. So that would indicate that the historical, familial pronunciation of LJWs parents, who were German immigrants, would be (as Eva’s audiofile indicates) “Veekmun” – a phonetic interpretation with a "long e” sound in English. It had been my suspicion that the "long e” sound was maintained when they moved to America but that the “v” sound at the beginning changed to a more English “w” sound. So now we have a pronunciation that would sound (phonetically again) like “Weekmun”.
This suspicion was confirmed for me when I found the 1870 census record for LJW and family. Yes, LJW appeared twice in the 1870 census as did his wife Annie. I am attaching a cropped image of that portion of the census. As you can see, the census taker wrote the surname in a phonetic fashion as “Weakman”.
So to summarize, I propose the following:
1) The correct spelling of the surname is Weichmann as that is what LJW seemed to prefer.
2) The correct pronunciation of the surname is the phonetic “Weekmun” as that is what the evidence supports as the preferred pronunciation of the family (and by extension LJW) once they moved to America.
So this begs a final question. Why did LJW change the spelling of his surname? I suspect that due to the pronunciation with a "long e” sound it was commonly misspelled (relative to the original Wiechmann) "Weichmann" because in American English, the “We” would me more familiar as a “long e” sound. It was misspelled all the time so he just went with it (I know from my own family history this was a common practice in the 19th century).
Roger as to your earlier question about what LJW's middle initial stood for, I wasn't able to find anything concrete but I suspect it may be Johann or John after his father.
What do you all think?
RE: Louis Weichmann - Pamela - 02-08-2015 01:33 PM
http://www.davemanuel.com/inflation-calculator.php
$25,000 of 1870 dollars would be worth: $454,545.45 in 2014
$3,000 of 1870 dollars would be worth: $54,545.45 in 2014
This might help. Samuel Johnson seemed fairly prosperous at the time she married Louis.
(02-08-2015 01:16 PM)STS Lincolnite Wrote:I(02-08-2015 12:34 PM)Eva Elisabeth Wrote:(02-08-2015 09:40 AM)Rogerm Wrote: In German, "ei" is always equivalent to the long "i" in English, whereas, the German "ie" is the same as the English long "e."But there's no English equivalent to the "ch", is it? How would you have described this sound, Roger? (I didn't know, so I recorded.) Am I guessing right that this is the main difference and maybe like a "k" in English?
Yes, like a "k'. That is always how I hear it when "Americanized". I am just getting ready to put up a more lengthy post on the spelling and pronunciation. Should be up in a few minutes.
Alright, so this thread has now migrated to the subject of my article (not yet submitted) on Weichmann. The correct spelling and pronunciation of his name. I will do a somewhat abbreviated synopsis here and if Laurie thinks there is still value in a marginally expanded and cited version for an article submission to the Surratt Courier I will do that as well.
Firstly, whenever deciding what is correct, I think “correct” needs to be defined. For correct spelling, I think it is simple. Whatever Louis Weichmann used and prefered himself. In all his correspondence, the authorship of his book, etc. he uses Weichmann. It should be noted that there is a variant that appeared on his business school letterhead that had only one “n” at the end. I suspect (as did Floyd Risvold) that was a printers error that LJW never bothered to have corrected. I propose the correct spelling as far his surname goes is Weichmann because that is what he preferred. Nothing really new here I don’t think.
For pronunciation, I also think “correct” would be what was individually preferred. As we move forward with pronunciation, it should be noted that LJW’s family name was actually spelled Wiechmann. This is evidenced by its use by all his other family members (father, mother, sisters, brother). It is also spelled that way on their headstones - as well as LJW’s headstone. I suspect that LJW's surviving family spelled it that way on his headstone as it was their preference and the true familial spelling. So that would indicate that the historical, familial pronunciation of LJWs parents, who were German immigrants, would be (as Eva’s audiofile indicates) “Veekmun” – a phonetic interpretation with a "long e” sound in English. It had been my suspicion that the "long e” sound was maintained when they moved to America but that the “v” sound at the beginning changed to a more English “w” sound. So now we have a pronunciation that would sound (phonetically again) like “Weekmun”.
This suspicion was confirmed for me when I found the 1870 census record for LJW and family. Yes, LJW appeared twice in the 1870 census as did his wife Annie. I am attaching a cropped image of that portion of the census. As you can see, the census taker wrote the surname in a phonetic fashion as “Weakman”.
So to summarize, I propose the following:
1) The correct spelling of the surname is Weichmann as that is what LJW seemed to prefer.
2) The correct pronunciation of the surname is the phonetic “Weekmun” as that is what the evidence supports as the preferred pronunciation of the family (and by extension LJW) once they moved to America.
So this begs a final question. Why did LJW change the spelling of his surname? I suspect that due to the pronunciation with a "long e” sound it was commonly misspelled (relative to the original Wiechmann) "Weichmann" because in American English, the “We” would me more familiar as a “long e” sound. It was misspelled all the time so he just went with it (I know from my own family history this was a common practice in the 19th century).
Roger as to your earlier question about what LJW's middle initial stood for, I wasn't able to find anything concrete but I suspect it may be Johann or John after his father.
What do you all think?
Good catch of the possible phonetic spelling on the census form. I read, I think in Weichmann's book, that during the first trial his name was misspelled and he decided just to go with that. Also I read somewhere that back in earlier times people weren't fussy about the spelling of their names and would often spell their own names in a variety of ways.
RE: Louis Weichmann - Wild Bill - 02-08-2015 02:11 PM
For what it is worth, my last name, Richter (judge), has always been pronounced with the "ch" as an English "k" sound--except when a stranger who is selling something tries it out and it comes out so many different ways I cannot begin to tell you. That is how we know when we have received an unwanted or incorrect phone call. We are always mystified when Californians mispronounce it as they use the Richter scale to measure earthquakes.
If you think the German "ch" sound is difficult, try the Dutch "g" which is similar. Gouda cheese becomes closer to Houda. In my experience, you can actually clear your throat in an exaggerated manner and correctly pronounce "graag" as the Dutch can put the German "ch" sound at the beginning and end of words. Dutch makes German look and sound easy to me. Likewise, although it is an oversimplification, Van Gough is closer to Van Cook to me.
RE: Louis Weichmann - Pamela - 02-08-2015 02:16 PM
In Atzerodt's (another German) lost confession his brother-in-law, detective John L. Smith, made notes of his statement. Presumably he spelled Weichmann's name phonectically. This statement of Atzerodt was made early in the investigation. Smith wrote "Weightman" and "Young Weightman". That's very different phonetically "Weakman".
Also Atzerodt never accused Weichmann of complicity in the plots, even in the confession he made on the eve of his execution after Lou testified against him, and he had the chance for revenge. In fact, as far as I know, none of the condemned accused Weichmann.
RE: Louis Weichmann - STS Lincolnite - 02-08-2015 02:21 PM
(02-08-2015 02:16 PM)Pamela Wrote: In Atzerodt's (another German) lost confession his brother-in-law, detective John L. Smith, made notes of his statement. Presumably he spelled Weichmann's name phonectically. This statement of Atzerodt was made early in the investigation. Smith wrote "Weightman" and "Young Weightman". That's very different phonetically "Weakman".
That's the hard part about totally relying on phonetic spellings. It's all dependent on how well the speaker articulates, how well the listener hears and how well a transcriber spells (or even how legible their writing is).
RE: Louis Weichmann - Wild Bill - 02-08-2015 02:26 PM
I believe that Ed Steers refers to Weichmann's name being correctly Wiechmann in Blood on the Moon. The "W" ought to be pronounced as a "V" in any case, which might explain how it came out as Weightman? A lot of Germans screw up their W's and V's when speaking English. It is one reason why American soldiers liked to use the word "wreath" for a password on the front lines in WW II. They also mess up the English TH sound pronouncing it as an English T. To put both in a word caught them on one end of the word or the other. We used "Philadelphia" in the Pacific against the Japanese. All the L's become R's in a native Japanese speaker.
RE: Louis Weichmann - Rogerm - 02-08-2015 02:36 PM
You could maybe say that the German "ch" sound is halfway between our "k" and "sh" sounds.
RE: Louis Weichmann - STS Lincolnite - 02-08-2015 02:42 PM
(02-08-2015 02:26 PM)Wild Bill Wrote: They also mess up the English TH sound pronouncing it as an English T.
My Great Grandfather was a German immigrant and so my Grandfather spoke German. Even though born here, he spoke as Bill described above. When we were kids we would always laugh when he would call the number 3 "tree". It should also be noted that, similar to the many variant English accents, there are a number of German dialects that can be quite different. I remember my Grandfather speaking one time to German visitor and even though they both spoke German, they spoke different dialects and had difficulty conversing. I am sure this could also account for different pronunciations to some degree.
Back to the "correct" pronunciation. My surname is Schroeder. In America you will hear it with the "oe" having a "long a" sound (as my family utilizes) or the "oe" having a "long o" sound. No one can tell me my pronunciation is incorrect because it is what my family uses. But in my research, it is likely that neither the "long a" or the "long o" would be historically correct. When I visited relatives in Germany and Belgium near where my family emigrated from, they pronounced it more like "Schroyder". That's not exactly right either - it was hard to hear correctly and wrap my tongue around.
(02-08-2015 02:26 PM)Wild Bill Wrote: I believe that Ed Steers refers to Weichmann's name being correctly Wiechmann in Blood on the Moon.
I seem to remember that too, but I think Ed was speaking as to what was historically correct. As I posted above, that is the way the rest of his family spelled it so would be historically correct. But what is truly correct, to me anyway, is how a single individual chooses to spell and use their surname (same goes for individual choice of pronunciation, as my personal example in a previous post). And for LJW, at least from the point of the assassination onward, he chose Weichmann.
(02-08-2015 02:36 PM)Rogerm Wrote: You could maybe say that the German "ch" sound is halfway between our "k" and "sh" sounds.
I think that is well described. Much the same as with my surname. I think a good description of my German/Belgian relatives' pronunciation (to my ear anyway) would have the "oe" somewhere between the English "long a" and "long o".
RE: Louis Weichmann - Wild Bill - 02-08-2015 03:01 PM
Here is a good one for you. I never had any problem understanding my father's heavily accented English as a child. I really did not even hear the accent. But when I took German in college (he made me speak Spanish before that once we live in the desert Southwest and it was more useful) I found that my father became almost impossible to understand when speaking English. I have had the same experience with Spanish speakers. I usually prefer to hear them in Spanish than English as it is easier to understand them. But I always enjoy speaking Spanish to Laurie most of all!
RE: Louis Weichmann - Eva Elisabeth - 02-08-2015 03:06 PM
(02-08-2015 02:26 PM)Wild Bill Wrote: We used "Philadelphia" in the Pacific against the Japanese. All the L's become R's in a native Japanese speaker.Interesting - I've always thought it's the other way round (they would say "L" instead of "R"), at least this goes for the Chinese.
(02-08-2015 12:17 PM)Pamela Wrote:Just to clarify - Pamela, please don't misunderstand, I didn't want to correct you nor set anyone straight. I was asked about the German pronunciation and just thought if one is interested in this info others might be, too.(02-08-2015 09:09 AM)RJNorton Wrote: Many thanks to Eva for sending the correct pronunciation for Louis J. Weichmann's last name!Of course I've been pronouncing it wrong. Thanks for setting us straight. I wonder if any of his contemporaries pronounced it the German way.
Weichmann: CLICK HERE
Wiechmann:CLICK HERE