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+--- Thread: If Lincoln had not died (/thread-583.html)
RE: If Lincoln had not died - My Name Is Kate - 01-05-2013 08:31 PM
Wow, what a thread! That article by Lloyd Lewis was so well-written, concise, articulate, etc., that it finally got through to me, at least a little bit, what politics is all about.
Had I been living in Lincoln's time and the Reconstruction, I might have sided with the Radical Republicans, but I can now see how that would most likely have been naive, at best, and probably counterproductive to reuniting the nation and ultimately achieving equality for all citizens.
Politics is about working with human nature as it is, not as it ought to be. Sometimes it even takes setting aside not only your own ego, but your own morals and beliefs, at least to some extent, in order to achieve objectives further down the road, that coincide with your morals and beliefs. For example, Lincoln must have known that the "right" thing to do would be to immediately grant all the former slaves the right to vote, but he knew he had to delay that in order to succeed at the bigger picture of winning the South's (and the North's) trust and cooperation so the nation could gradually heal and reunite.
I suppose lawyers must take an oath to defend their clients no matter what their own personal beliefs may be in the case. I find that disturbing, but it probably is "good" training if they are planning eventually to become politicians. I still do not like politics at all, but at least now I think I understand it a little better.
RE: If Lincoln had not died - Thomas Thorne - 01-05-2013 08:39 PM
Wild Bill's post # 19 is the best he has ever written.
I see a certain convergence between the views of Wild Bill,Sean Wilentz and myself, the oddest of odd bedfellows, rejecting the notion of Lincoln's "pro Confederate" policy of reconstruction which if pursued by Lincoln, would have produced for Lincoln the same fate as Andrew Johnson-repudiation and impeachment by his own party.
Lincoln's last speech enraged JWB for its espousal of Black suffrage. I find it inconceivable that Lincoln would not have shared the Republican outrage over the post-war Black Codes which reduced the freedmen to virtual slavery. I agree with Eric Mckitrick's surmise in "Andrew Johnson and Reconstruction" that Pres. Lincoln, unlike AJ, would have informed the defeated South that the Black codes were utterly unacceptable to the victorious North. Mckitrick made interesting comparisons between the actions of a defeated Japan which in 1945 adopted democracy because the victorious occupying power,the USA,demanded it do so and the defeated South. Andrew Johnson had no problems with the Black Codes. Johnson's silence misled the White South into believing that such practices were acceptable to the North.
Unlike Johnson, Abraham Lincoln was perhaps,with the possible exception of FDR, the most accomplished driver of the political stagecoach of fractious politicians of all our presidents. What made the Spielberg "Lincoln" so fascinating was its celebration of Lincoln as politician so foreign to our folklore depiction of Lincoln and ingrained distrust of politicians. Would Lincoln have been impeached by his own party? Will Madonna become a nun?
Happy New Year to you all. Let's have a great 2013 forum.
Tom
RE: If Lincoln had not died - Bill Richter - 01-06-2013 06:41 AM
Nancy, you just had your wallet lifted
Thomas, I am on the way to the emergency room--I feel another heart attack coming on. . . .
RE: If Lincoln had not died - MaddieM - 01-06-2013 08:07 AM
Well, it seems to me that, despite abolishing slavery, not much was put in place to ensure the well being and financial security of those freed slaves. Abolition may have been the ideal, but racism was still very much in place from the very people who voted for it. I mean, did Lincoln have some grand plan for that? Did his death end any plans to help the freed slaves still further?
RE: If Lincoln had not died - Rob Wick - 01-06-2013 10:15 AM
What exactly could anyone have done to change people's perceptions? It's been 150 years since the Emancipation Proclamation was issued, and our society (as well as those in Europe) still struggles with racism. Lincoln often said that there were far too many differences between people for whites and blacks to live together harmoniously, which is why he supported colonization and didn't want to move too quickly. Add to that the federal government's abandonment of blacks in the south which left them to the whims of white supremacists and you've got a recipe for disaster.
RE: If Lincoln had not died - Bill Richter - 01-06-2013 10:24 AM
One really interesting thing is that many abolitionists abandoned the Blacks during Reconstruction--even before it started, in fact. Congress approached Reconstruction more as a political problem rather than a social problem. What we a modern Americans need to realize is that we cannot hold our ancestors to our standards today because they never really saw the problem as we do now. Rats! Now I am agreeing with Rob Wick. I am going out and shoot myself!
RE: If Lincoln had not died - Rob Wick - 01-06-2013 10:47 AM
Go with the feeling, Bill (agreeing with me, I mean, not shooting yourself).
Best
Rob
RE: If Lincoln had not died - Bill Richter - 01-06-2013 12:00 PM
Rob,
I missed the shot, anyway!
RE: If Lincoln had not died - Linda Anderson - 01-06-2013 12:20 PM
(01-06-2013 08:07 AM)MaddieM Wrote: Well, it seems to me that, despite abolishing slavery, not much was put in place to ensure the well being and financial security of those freed slaves. Abolition may have been the ideal, but racism was still very much in place from the very people who voted for it. I mean, did Lincoln have some grand plan for that? Did his death end any plans to help the freed slaves still further?
"Dying for Freedom" in the Jan. 5, 2013 New York Times Disunion blog addresses this issue. The comments are interesting as well.
http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/01/05/dying-for-freedom/
RE: If Lincoln had not died - Thomas Thorne - 01-06-2013 12:23 PM
Dear Wild Bill
The new year has only begun and you are contemplating giving unnecessary work to EMS people-heart attack-and morgue attendants-suicide. We need you.
Dear Rob
I must respectfully disagree with yr statement about our current struggles with racism. Its prevalence today is greatly exaggerated. Suppose you had told Jefferson Davis in 1861 that the 2 major party candidates for president in 2012 were an African American incumbent and a Mormon. The 2 VP candidates were both Roman Catholics. The African American was reelected. Given his relative inexperience observers thought he would not been nominated by his party in 2008 if he were white and the nomination would have gone to a more qualified woman.
The opposition party was accused by some of this president's supporters of being racists. Most of the evidence cited were "code words" uttered by the president's opponents that by some alchemy could only be construed as racist by the president's supporters. Two code words actually cited were references to the president coming from Chicago and his fondness for playing golf.
The most recent president of this opposition party had 2 African American secretaries of state. The opposition party had two governors of former Confederate states whose parents were born in India. One of these governors was from South Carolina and just appointed an African American to the United States Senate.
In 2012 all nine members of the United States Supreme Court were Roman Catholics.
Please quantify the amount of smelling salts the EMS people-who would otherwise be devoted to caring for Wild Bill's rhetorical injuries-would need to revive Jefferson Davis?
Tom
RE: If Lincoln had not died - Rob Wick - 01-06-2013 12:42 PM
Tom,
Institutional racism may be on the wane (and in some instances I would disagree with that), but on a personal level it's alive and well throughout society. The difference is 50 years ago it was wide open for all to see. Today it's far more hidden because very few want to be openly accused of harboring racist views.
However, I would even go one step further and say that even the most ardent abolitionist might be surprised as the strides made in our society. The danger, as I see it, is to take so much comfort from what has been accomplished that we fail to see that it remains in danger of being taken away.
Best
Rob
RE: If Lincoln had not died - My Name Is Kate - 01-06-2013 02:21 PM
Even though racism still does exist and probably always will (since so many people seem to think that whatever race they happen to be, is the best one), it is being exploited and kept constantly in the news because certain people are gaining more power and getting more rich from doing so.
Does it really even matter much anymore who is elected President?
RE: If Lincoln had not died - Rob Wick - 01-06-2013 02:40 PM
In a Democracy it matters a great deal.
Best
Rob
RE: If Lincoln had not died - Gene C - 01-06-2013 04:22 PM
(01-06-2013 02:21 PM)My Name Is Kate Wrote: Does it really even matter much anymore who is elected President?
Every thing matters. Everything you do matters.
I recommend a short little book called the Butterfly Effect by Andy Andrews. He writes about Joshua Chamberlain, the battle of Gettysburg, and the Butterfly Effect.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0x4e8xTvQh8
RE: If Lincoln had not died - Linda Anderson - 01-06-2013 04:31 PM
(01-06-2013 12:23 PM)Thomas Thorne Wrote: Dear Wild Bill
The new year has only begun and you are contemplating giving unnecessary work to EMS people-heart attack-and morgue attendants-suicide. We need you.
Dear Rob
I must respectfully disagree with yr statement about our current struggles with racism. Its prevalence today is greatly exaggerated. Suppose you had told Jefferson Davis in 1861 that the 2 major party candidates for president in 2012 were an African American incumbent and a Mormon. The 2 VP candidates were both Roman Catholics. The African American was reelected. Given his relative inexperience observers thought he would not been nominated by his party in 2008 if he were white and the nomination would have gone to a more qualified woman.
In 2012 all nine members of the United States Supreme Court were Roman Catholics.
Please quantify the amount of smelling salts the EMS people-who would otherwise be devoted to caring for Wild Bill's rhetorical injuries-would need to revive Jefferson Davis?
Tom
There are three Jewish justices on the Supreme Court today: Justices Ginsberg, Breyer and Kagan with Kagan being the last justice appointed to the Supreme Court in 2010. I don't know if Jefferson Davis would have needed smelling salts for the three Jewish justices as his Secretary of State, Judah Benjamin, was Jewish.