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+-- Forum: Lincoln Discussion Symposium (/forum-1.html)
+--- Forum: Assassination (/forum-5.html)
+--- Thread: The New York Crowd (/thread-496.html)
RE: The New York Crowd - RJNorton - 12-13-2012 08:46 AM
John, Tom and Jerry...my image of the New York crowd is partially based on what I thought was a fall in cotton prices as the war wore down and demand in the North declined. I am sure futures traders...those that were long cotton...were taking a beating. I figure they wanted the war revved up again to increase demand (and prices) for cotton. With Lincoln dead, they figured the war might again accelerate and be prolonged. Perhaps I am way off base in this line of thought, but I am trying to think of the various reasons why "the crowd" in New York might want Lincoln dead.
RE: The New York Crowd - Laurie Verge - 12-13-2012 10:25 AM
For once, Jerry, I tend to agree with you. However, a manuscript that I reviewed several years ago (that has never been published) threw some New York financiers and merchants into the mix. I wish I could give you some hints, but I agreed to confidentiality when reading that work.
RE: The New York Crowd - JMadonna - 12-13-2012 12:37 PM
Roger,
I think it was a political hit not financial. Cotton was still in great demand and the end of the war would have gone a long way to restoring prices. That said, most probably Fernando Wood and his brother would have found a way to profit by Lincoln's death.
Watch out Laurie, agreeing with me is the first step on the road to heresy.
RE: The New York Crowd - Laurie Verge - 12-13-2012 02:22 PM
Oh, I'll probably stop agreeing with you very quickly! LOL... However, for now, I think Fernando Wood is a good place to start an investigation. I have also wondered about Senator Louis Wigfall from Texas, who seems to have taken his own sweet time in leaving the halls of Congress and going back home to the Confederacy. I think he was heavily involved in the KGC too.
RE: The New York Crowd - Gene C - 12-13-2012 03:13 PM
KGC - Kentucky Grilled Chicken?
Did they have Knights of the Golden Circle in TX?
RE: The New York Crowd - Laurie Verge - 12-13-2012 04:32 PM
The research done by David Keehn reveals a lot more "castles" of the KGC spread throughout the U.S. than previous writers have mentioned.
I think he also found that the KGC preferred KFC for Sunday dinner.
RE: The New York Crowd - John Stanton - 12-13-2012 09:10 PM
If you are serious about "The NY Crowd" - GOOGLE "Mr Lincoln and New York". It is a large post by the Lincoln Institute
who I trust as Historians and as "Googlers". They don't I.D. the "Crowd", but the names and a biography are there for you to sort out. IMO, this answers the questions in our thread. The only other person I can think of, who is not listed here is George Nicholas Sanders - who tried to be an assassin, knew and associated with assassins, wanted Lincoln assassinated, and who I think was involved. I'll look for more. See what you think - maybe we don't need more.
I forgot to add one other important thing - How did GEORGE ATZERODT know about these people? I assume that Georgie was not as stupid, as we might think he was.
RE: The New York Crowd - Gene C - 12-13-2012 10:38 PM
I believe Ray Neff was a proponent of the NY Crowd theory.
For those who haven't read it, his book "Dark Union", lays out a lot of unsubstantiated claims and confusing naratives about the NY Crowd, with much of his theories based upon questonable documents, the Potter Papers. He weaves a complicated story that will leave you with more questions than answers. Other than that, it is an interesting book.
RE: The New York Crowd - RJNorton - 12-14-2012 05:07 AM
(12-13-2012 09:10 PM)John Stanton Wrote: I forgot to add one other important thing - How did GEORGE ATZERODT know about these people? I assume that Georgie was not as stupid, as we might think he was.
Does anyone think Booth was embellishing when he told Chester there were between 50 and 100 people in the plot?
John, in Atzerodt's handwritten statement of July 6, 1865, he wrote:
"Booth told me that Surratt was in the Herndon House on the night of the murder, the 14th of April, we were not all together at the Herndon House. Booth told me that Surratt was to help at the box, that he expected others in the box. I saw Surratt a few moments ago."
Surratt was in Elmira, so we know Booth was lying to Atzerodt. Maybe this is another example of Booth lying or embellishing to Atzerodt. I think the reference to the New York crowd was simply something Booth told Atzerodt to make Atzerodt feel he was part of something "big."
I remain unconvinced that the plot may have included up to 100 people, and many of these were in New York. I am open on it, though, but right now I feel Booth was lying/embellishing regarding what we are calling the New York crowd. This is not to say Booth didn't meet with members of the KGC, Confederate operatives, and others and talked "anti-Lincoln talk" with them. But, at least at this point, I remain unconvinced all these folks were involved in a huge, organized plot to kill the president.
RE: The New York Crowd - Jim Garrett - 12-14-2012 06:13 AM
(12-14-2012 05:07 AM)RJNorton Wrote:(12-13-2012 09:10 PM)John Stanton Wrote: I forgot to add one other important thing - How did GEORGE ATZERODT know about these people? I assume that Georgie was not as stupid, as we might think he was.
Does anyone think Booth was embellishing when he told Chester there were between 50 and 100 people in the plot?
John, in Atzerodt's handwritten statement of July 6, 1865, he wrote:
"Booth told me that Surratt was in the Herndon House on the night of the murder, the 14th of April, we were not all together at the Herndon House. Booth told me that Surratt was to help at the box, that he expected others in the box. I saw Surratt a few moments ago."
Surratt was in Elmira, so we know Booth was lying to Atzerodt. Maybe this is another example of Booth lying or embellishing to Atzerodt. I think the reference to the New York crowd was simply something Booth told Atzerodt to make Atzerodt feel he was part of something "big."
I remain unconvinced that the plot may have included up to 100 people, and many of these were in New York. I am open on it, though, but right now I feel Booth was lying/embellishing regarding what we are calling the New York crowd. This is not to say Booth didn't meet with members of the KGC, Confederate operatives, and others and talked "anti-Lincoln talk" with them. But, at least at this point, I remain unconvinced all these folks were involved in a huge, organized plot to kill the president.
"Dark Union" is a morass. It is very hard to follow and you have to continually question the veracity of the information. Full of alot of big leaps.
There may have been 50 people involved in plots, but not the Booth plot. If we extend the number of plots out as far as including Mosby, the number of 50 is not out of the question.
If you look at "Come Retribution", after Harbin, who was suppose to be the next "handler"? Could Thomas H. Williamson (my grt grt grt uncle) been on the Northern Neck for some other reason than stopping by to see former students from VMI? And let's not forget Enoch Mason. "Come Retribution" qualifies and doesn't make the great leaps.
RE: The New York Crowd - JMadonna - 12-14-2012 08:43 AM
(12-14-2012 05:07 AM)RJNorton Wrote: I remain unconvinced that the plot may have included up to 100 people, and many of these were in New York. I am open on it, though, but right now I feel Booth was lying/embellishing regarding what we are calling the New York crowd. This is not to say Booth didn't meet with members of the KGC, Confederate operatives, and others and talked "anti-Lincoln talk" with them. But, at least at this point, I remain unconvinced all these folks were involved in a huge, organized plot to kill the president.
I agree Roger. The majority of Lincoln's opposition in NYC was against the war while Lincoln represented the opposite view. The burning of NY and the end of the war had to have had a sobering effect on their numbers.
That's why I think it was a political hit by a small terrorist cell.
RE: The New York Crowd - JB Banning - 12-14-2012 09:28 AM
(12-12-2012 10:52 PM)John Stanton Wrote:(11-19-2012 05:35 AM)RJNorton Wrote: John, did you find anything specifically about New York cotton speculators wanting Lincoln out because of the dramatic decline in cotton prices late in the war?
I have not found any records of prices falling, toward the end of the war, but there was a problem with Gen, Grant, who tried to stop the tradeing with the enemy, in opposition to the two laws that were passed controling the exchange of pork for cotton , turpentine and rosin. As it became more difficult to pass the cotton through the lines, the South burned the cotton to prevent thr North from capturing the cotton and taking it home - free. By this time, the South was sending ALL their cotton North, because the blockade prevented them from selling some to England and France.
If anyone finds another answer, Plez let us hear from you
Mr. Stanton,
Check out the 2nd paragraph on page 4 of this paper. I think this is what you might be looking for concerning cotton prices.
http://www.thebhc.org/publications/BEHprint/v028n2/p0301-p0312.pdf
Joe
RE: The New York Crowd - RJNorton - 12-15-2012 05:41 AM
Joe, thank you for posting that link. That's quite an article. Lots of names are mentioned. John, were you able to open the file?
RE: The New York Crowd - JB Banning - 12-15-2012 07:24 AM
(12-15-2012 05:41 AM)RJNorton Wrote: Joe, thank you for posting that link. That's quite an article. Lots of names are mentioned. John, were you able to open the file?
It was my pleasure, Roger.
RE: The New York Crowd - Laurie Verge - 12-15-2012 10:42 AM
That was a great article. Economics is not a fun topic, but that actually made sense to me.