(06-10-2015 08:28 PM)Pamela Wrote:  

(05-23-2015 09:55 PM)John Fazio Wrote:  Roger and Bill:

I come to this a little late, but let me weigh in.

It is not necessary to postulate that Booth found Harney in the Old Capitol Prison through informants, though that is of course possible. He would have had a hard time communicating with him there, assuming he could even get to see him. The far greater likelihood, in my opinion, is that he was informed of the failure of Harney's mission and the capture of Harney at Burke Station by telegraph and ordered to proceed with the contingency plan, which Surratt had most likely received in Richmond when he was there in late March and early April, returning to Washington on April 3 and leaving for Montreal the next morning, stopping first in New York to see Booth (who was in Boston). Thus it was that Booth advised Surratt in Montreal, on the 10th (Harney was captured on the 9th, per Crawford) that their plans had changed and that in consequence thereof he was to return to Washington forthwith, which he did, or at least began to do, "immediately", or so he told McMillan. In these circumstances, it doesn't make a lot of sense that he would stop in Elmira and blithely patronize tailors and haberdashers. In my opinion, Booth did not "decide to do his (Harney's) job for him"; he had already been instructed to approximate Harney's intended results if Harney's mission failed. I agree that at least Lincoln, Johnson, Seward, Stanton and Grant were targeted. Many others may also have been targeted (as many as 15, per the Confederate agent "Johnston"), but the evidence for these is weak.

It is unlikely that Surratt was on the train with Grant, but it is nearly certain that someone was and that the someone's assignment was to assassinate Grant. Remember that there were many more involved in the conspiracy than Booth and his action team. Remember that Powell said to Eckert that "All I can say about this is that you (Federal prosecutors) do not have the one-half of them" and that it was his "impression" that others had been assigned to make such disposition with respect to other Federal officeholders as he was to make of Seward. What this tells us is that would-be assassins were in motion that night other than Booth and his team, such as it was, and that whoever was assigned to kill Grant was almost certainly outside of Booth's immediate team.

I regard the letter to Grant as genuine (there is nothing self-serving about it) and so, apparently, did Grant and Julia. It appears in all of Grant's biographies, in Julia's Memoirs and in a conversation Grant had with Lamon in 1880. Further, Josiah Bunting III claimed that Julia actually heard the scuffling on the platform. Further, the reference to a locked car door in the letter squares perfectly with Grant's expressed recollection. It is nearly impossible that Surratt--the cold-blooded killer of Union POW's and Union agents on the Potomac, whose deeds, if known by McMillan, he said, would make him "stare" or "gape"-- would have authored such a letter, which is very persuasive evidence that Surratt was not on the train. Who would Booth have assigned to do the job? Why do we automatically assume that Booth did the assigning? Booth was himself being handled, an assignee as well as an assignor. Why wouldn't one of his handlers, or in any case someone other than he, someone in a position of greater authority, have made the assignment?

Where was Surratt on the 14th? I believe the greater likelihood is that he was in Washington, but it is still an open question. One must at least consider the possibility that he made use of a double. There is, in fact, reference to a Surratt "personator" in the literature. If there were such, and he made use of him, it would explain everything. In any case, it is not necessary to determine where he was to exclude him as the would-be assassin of Grant.

All of the foregoing, and much more, is in my book, "Decapitating the Union". The more copies one orders, the cheaper they are. In fact, if one orders 100,000 or more copies, one gets them for nothing.

John

Whether John Surratt was in Washington or not is so interesting. I haven't gotten your book yet but it is on the top of my list, and what I am posting may already be covered in your book.

John Surratt's jacket/coat is a fascinating piece of evidence. It drew so much attention and was such a large part of his alibi for the 14th. A tailor testified to having made it for a man matching Surratt's description on April 9th. The men in the Elmira haberdashery testified to remembering a man they believed was John Surratt because of the unusual design of the coat, among other things. The jacket was what drew their attention. One man testified that Surratt came to the store on the 13th and the 14th, wearing the coat, to inquire about articles of clothing that they didn't have. Booth got to the National hotel on the 8th. On the 9th Surratt, or man matching his description, had a tailor in Canada make him the distinctive coat. The man matching Surratt's description paraded around Elmira in the coat on April 13th and 14th.

Also, on the 14th, after returning from Surrattsville, Mary Surratt showed Weichmann a letter from John, dated April 12th from Canada, that had been brought to the house by Annie Ward. According to Weichmann's recollection of the letter (which was never found), "...that he had bought a French pea jacket for which he had paid ten dollars in silver....". Weichmann thought he had been shown the letter for a purpose, which he was never able to fathom. He noted that in the letter Surratt referred to Weichmann's driving Mary to the country on the 11th in a "jesting manner", and Weichmann believed the only way John could have known of the trip was by telegraph.

So why did John mention a French pea jacket? The jacket worn in Elmira was nothing like a pea jacket. Did John lie about the type of jacket and if so, why? Or did he buy 2 jackets, or a jacket and a coat, and only mention the pea jacket? That seems like a lot of bulky clothing for a confederate spy/courier to travel with. Possibly Surratt was just on a clothes spending spree. Weichmann noted that when John returned from Richmond on April 3rd, he was wearing a new suit.

The Elmira alibi was aparently such a big deal for Surratt, that in the Hanson Hiss article, written more than two decades later, he vastly inflated the time he spent there, to weeks. He also claimed the reason he never revealed the name of the Union officer that he basically bribed to get inside the prison to sketch, was a matter of honor. Since we know that Surratt had no honor, that part of his story is "sketchy".

As for who was on Grant's train, maybe it was Surratt. Surratt was full of derring do, like Booth (at least on stage), he was partners with Booth and judging from Booth's behavior toward the Grants on the 14th, Grant's murder was tremendously important. As for the letter, Surratt could have had someone else write the letter. It would make it look like someone else attempted the assassination. That was a trick he used with Weichmann more than once.

(06-20-2015 10:21 AM)John Fazio Wrote:  

(06-10-2015 08:28 PM)Pamela Wrote:  

(05-23-2015 09:55 PM)John Fazio Wrote:  Roger and Bill:

I come to this a little late, but let me weigh in.

It is not necessary to postulate that Booth found Harney in the Old Capitol Prison through informants, though that is of course possible. He would have had a hard time communicating with him there, assuming he could even get to see him. The far greater likelihood, in my opinion, is that he was informed of the failure of Harney's mission and the capture of Harney at Burke Station by telegraph and ordered to proceed with the contingency plan, which Surratt had most likely received in Richmond when he was there in late March and early April, returning to Washington on April 3 and leaving for Montreal the next morning, stopping first in New York to see Booth (who was in Boston). Thus it was that Booth advised Surratt in Montreal, on the 10th (Harney was captured on the 9th, per Crawford) that their plans had changed and that in consequence thereof he was to return to Washington forthwith, which he did, or at least began to do, "immediately", or so he told McMillan. In these circumstances, it doesn't make a lot of sense that he would stop in Elmira and blithely patronize tailors and haberdashers. In my opinion, Booth did not "decide to do his (Harney's) job for him"; he had already been instructed to approximate Harney's intended results if Harney's mission failed. I agree that at least Lincoln, Johnson, Seward, Stanton and Grant were targeted. Many others may also have been targeted (as many as 15, per the Confederate agent "Johnston"), but the evidence for these is weak.

It is unlikely that Surratt was on the train with Grant, but it is nearly certain that someone was and that the someone's assignment was to assassinate Grant. Remember that there were many more involved in the conspiracy than Booth and his action team. Remember that Powell said to Eckert that "All I can say about this is that you (Federal prosecutors) do not have the one-half of them" and that it was his "impression" that others had been assigned to make such disposition with respect to other Federal officeholders as he was to make of Seward. What this tells us is that would-be assassins were in motion that night other than Booth and his team, such as it was, and that whoever was assigned to kill Grant was almost certainly outside of Booth's immediate team.

I regard the letter to Grant as genuine (there is nothing self-serving about it) and so, apparently, did Grant and Julia. It appears in all of Grant's biographies, in Julia's Memoirs and in a conversation Grant had with Lamon in 1880. Further, Josiah Bunting III claimed that Julia actually heard the scuffling on the platform. Further, the reference to a locked car door in the letter squares perfectly with Grant's expressed recollection. It is nearly impossible that Surratt--the cold-blooded killer of Union POW's and Union agents on the Potomac, whose deeds, if known by McMillan, he said, would make him "stare" or "gape"-- would have authored such a letter, which is very persuasive evidence that Surratt was not on the train. Who would Booth have assigned to do the job? Why do we automatically assume that Booth did the assigning? Booth was himself being handled, an assignee as well as an assignor. Why wouldn't one of his handlers, or in any case someone other than he, someone in a position of greater authority, have made the assignment?

Where was Surratt on the 14th? I believe the greater likelihood is that he was in Washington, but it is still an open question. One must at least consider the possibility that he made use of a double. There is, in fact, reference to a Surratt "personator" in the literature. If there were such, and he made use of him, it would explain everything. In any case, it is not necessary to determine where he was to exclude him as the would-be assassin of Grant.

All of the foregoing, and much more, is in my book, "Decapitating the Union". The more copies one orders, the cheaper they are. In fact, if one orders 100,000 or more copies, one gets them for nothing.

John

Whether John Surratt was in Washington or not is so interesting. I haven't gotten your book yet but it is on the top of my list, and what I am posting may already be covered in your book.

John Surratt's jacket/coat is a fascinating piece of evidence. It drew so much attention and was such a large part of his alibi for the 14th. A tailor testified to having made it for a man matching Surratt's description on April 9th. The men in the Elmira haberdashery testified to remembering a man they believed was John Surratt because of the unusual design of the coat, among other things. The jacket was what drew their attention. One man testified that Surratt came to the store on the 13th and the 14th, wearing the coat, to inquire about articles of clothing that they didn't have. Booth got to the National hotel on the 8th. On the 9th Surratt, or man matching his description, had a tailor in Canada make him the distinctive coat. The man matching Surratt's description paraded around Elmira in the coat on April 13th and 14th.

Also, on the 14th, after returning from Surrattsville, Mary Surratt showed Weichmann a letter from John, dated April 12th from Canada, that had been brought to the house by Annie Ward. According to Weichmann's recollection of the letter (which was never found), "...that he had bought a French pea jacket for which he had paid ten dollars in silver....". Weichmann thought he had been shown the letter for a purpose, which he was never able to fathom. He noted that in the letter Surratt referred to Weichmann's driving Mary to the country on the 11th in a "jesting manner", and Weichmann believed the only way John could have known of the trip was by telegraph.

So why did John mention a French pea jacket? The jacket worn in Elmira was nothing like a pea jacket. Did John lie about the type of jacket and if so, why? Or did he buy 2 jackets, or a jacket and a coat, and only mention the pea jacket? That seems like a lot of bulky clothing for a confederate spy/courier to travel with. Possibly Surratt was just on a clothes spending spree. Weichmann noted that when John returned from Richmond on April 3rd, he was wearing a new suit.

The Elmira alibi was aparently such a big deal for Surratt, that in the Hanson Hiss article, written more than two decades later, he vastly inflated the time he spent there, to weeks. He also claimed the reason he never revealed the name of the Union officer that he basically bribed to get inside the prison to sketch, was a matter of honor. Since we know that Surratt had no honor, that part of his story is "sketchy".

As for who was on Grant's train, maybe it was Surratt. Surratt was full of derring do, like Booth (at least on stage), he was partners with Booth and judging from Booth's behavior toward the Grants on the 14th, Grant's murder was tremendously important. As for the letter, Surratt could have had someone else write the letter. It would make it look like someone else attempted the assassination. That was a trick he used with Weichmann more than once.

Pamela:

Thanks for your input.

Pending the discovery of new evidence, it is, in my opinion, impossible to know where Surratt was on the 14th. He gave three different versions as to where he was, when he learned of the assassination and what he did in response thereto (McMillan, Rockville lecture and Hanson Hiss interview). I find it extraordinary and unbelievable that he would, in response to an order from Booth to return to Washington forthwith (from Montreal) because their plans had changed, go instead to Elmira, case out the prison for a possible breakout even though the war was over on April 9 (for all practical purposes) and even though Grant had been exchanging 3,000 prisoners a week since January, soak up the lower New York scenery (while the Confederacy continued to collapse), blithely patronize haberdashers and tailors, and then decide to return to Baltimore "to find out the particulars of the tragedy", but go first to Canandaigua (the opposite direction from Baltimore) because he couldn't get a train from Elmira. The whole story smells. See pp. 46-48 of my book.

John

(06-20-2015 08:01 AM)Rick Smith Wrote:  I would take exception with John Fazio's description of John Surratt as a "vile man."

Why was he vile? Because he was working against the Union and Old Abe? For most, I suppose that is all it takes.

I think "vile" is way off the mark.

(06-20-2015 10:58 AM)HerbS Wrote:  Rich,everyone has their own opinion! However,I do not agree with you!

(06-20-2015 10:46 AM)L Verge Wrote:  As for Surratt's claim to having killed Union men, I have never believed that. Even if he said it, I feel that it is braggadocio on his part.

---

(06-20-2015 08:01 AM)Rick Smith Wrote:  I would take exception with John Fazio's description of John Surratt as a "vile man."

Why was he vile? Because he was working against the Union and Old Abe? For most, I suppose that is all it takes.

I think "vile" is way off the mark.

Rick (and others) - of course, you know that I agree with you as far as considering John Surratt "vile." He supported the Confederate cause, so that naturally made/makes him evil in the eyes of many people now as well as then. I have posted elsewhere on this forum that I have never believed that story about he and Sarah Slater disposing of those poor Union prisoners. I think it was part of young John's braggadocio.

(06-22-2015 11:41 AM)Gene C Wrote:  John, a long list. The more I learn, the more questions I have.

Some of the items you mentioned I don't know much about. Can you tell us a little more, and I only need a brief answer and perhaps a reference on where I can read more?

Who is #5, Jack Cade?
What was the Campbell Hospital Fiasco in #7
I know McMillan, #12-17, (who testified at Surratt's trail), is mentioned in Weichmann and Jampoler's book. Are Surratts comments to him confirmed by any other witness? Are there other sources to verify McMillan's statements?
Do we know anything about McMillan's reputation? Was he a reliable witness? (I have my doubts)

A question for Rick Smith, or anyone else. I don't know much about John Surratt. What little I have read (and maybe I missed it) doesn't show him in a favorable light. Has any one written anything that shows some of his outstanding qualities, specific examples of his behavior or actions that might show another and better side of him? I would like more than a general letter of reference or comment from a priest he knew years before the war.

Please take your time answering. This is an area of Lincoln's assassination that I don't know much about, and am a bit confused by what I think I know.

(06-22-2015 11:41 AM)Gene C Wrote:  John, a long list. The more I learn, the more questions I have.

Some of the items you mentioned I don't know much about. Can you tell us a little more, and I only need a brief answer and perhaps a reference on where I can read more?

Who is #5, Jack Cade?
What was the Campbell Hospital Fiasco in #7
I know McMillan, #12-17, (who testified at Surratt's trail), is mentioned in Weichmann and Jampoler's book. Are Surratts comments to him confirmed by any other witness? Are there other sources to verify McMillan's statements?
Do we know anything about McMillan's reputation? Was he a reliable witness? (I have my doubts)

A question for Rick Smith, or anyone else. I don't know much about John Surratt. What little I have read (and maybe I missed it) doesn't show him in a favorable light. Has any one written anything that shows some of his outstanding qualities, specific examples of his behavior or actions that might show another and better side of him? I would like more than a general letter of reference or comment from a priest he knew years before the war.

Please take your time answering. This is an area of Lincoln's assassination that I don't know much about, and am a bit confused by what I think I know.