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+--- Thread: Rathbone Uncovered (/thread-974.html)
RE: Rathbone Uncovered - Linda Anderson - 06-06-2013 10:02 AM
(06-06-2013 05:49 AM)Jim Garrett Wrote: Today, I am meeting Reignette Chilton to go to Mt. Olivet for Alphonse Donn. He lies in an unmarked grave. Last time I went to Mt. Olivet, they couldn't find him on their database. I had limited time and several people I was looking for. Today, we can be more focused.
Jim, while you are there you can check out Margaret Coleman's grave as well. She was Seward's servant who gave some interesting interviews about Powell's attack and who is thought by some to be the chambermaid that Atzerodt said Booth flirted with in order to gain knowledge of Seward's house. Considering that she lied to the Census taker and was actually about 50 in 1865, not 30, I have my doubts.
I found the location of her grave in James O. Hall files. I'll email the Lot and Plot Number to you if you are interested.
RE: Rathbone Uncovered - Rsmyth - 06-06-2013 11:07 AM
Hi Linda, Jim is at the cemetery right now. Can you give me the info and I will get it to him. Thanks. I never thought of her.
RE: Rathbone Uncovered - Linda Anderson - 06-06-2013 12:31 PM
Thanks, Rich, I emailed Jim earlier and he responded.
My husband and I were looking for her grave last March which is in the same section as Mary Surratt's. We missed the turn but that was lucky because when I looked around for the section numbers I saw the Coleman monument on a little grass island in the middle of the crossroads. We would still be looking in the Mary Surratt section if I hadn't seen it.
Maybe you or Jim can tell me why she is buried at the crossroads. I remembered from "Supernatural" that that's where the brothers went to meet the demons so I looked it up on Wikipedia.
"Burial at cross-roads
"Historically, burial at cross-roads was the method of disposing of executed criminals and persons who have committed suicide. Cross-roads form a crude cross shape and this may have given rise to the belief that these spots were selected as the next best burying-places to consecrated ground. Another possible explanation is that the ancient Teutonic (Germanic) ethnic groups often built their altars at the cross-roads, and since human sacrifices, especially of criminals, formed part of the ritual, these spots came to be regarded as execution grounds. Hence after the introduction of Christianity, criminals and suicides were buried at the cross-roads during the night, in order to assimilate as far as possible their funeral to that of the pagans.[citation needed] An example of a cross-road execution-ground was the famous Tyburn in London, which stood on the spot where the Roman road to Edgware and beyond met the Roman road heading west out of London."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burial
RE: Rathbone Uncovered - Laurie Verge - 06-06-2013 01:48 PM
That is interesting history! I don't know about the rest of the country, but around here there are several smaller cemeteries that fit the description of cross-roads because modern civilization has created the roads all around them.
My family's cemetery is now surrounded by a Dash Inn, a liquor store, and a small strip mall! That happened in the 1980s, when the last of the old plantation was sold off by later owners. I've always had a mental picture of "spirits" from the graveyard arising during the night and sneaking next door to the liquor store for other "spirits..."
RE: Rathbone Uncovered - Jim Garrett - 06-07-2013 05:46 AM
(06-06-2013 01:48 PM)Laurie Verge Wrote: That is interesting history! I don't know about the rest of the country, but around here there are several smaller cemeteries that fit the description of cross-roads because modern civilization has created the roads all around them.
My family's cemetery is now surrounded by a Dash Inn, a liquor store, and a small strip mall! That happened in the 1980s, when the last of the old plantation was sold off by later owners. I've always had a mental picture of "spirits" from the graveyard arising during the night and sneaking next door to the liquor store for other "spirits..."
Laurie: You are so lucky. You have a full afternoon all in one convenient spot. You can go over to the strip mall, do a little shopping, then go to the liquor store and pick up a bottle or two of Richard's Wild Irish Rose wine. Stroll over to the cemetery and visit with the family, maybe finish off the wine, then swing over to the Dash Inn for some Alka Seltzer.
RE: Rathbone Uncovered - Rsmyth - 06-07-2013 06:57 AM
I guess the next question is when did we come to believe the remains were disposed off and what led us to this conclusion?
RE: Rathbone Uncovered - LincolnMan - 06-07-2013 07:42 AM
(06-06-2013 01:48 PM)Laurie Verge Wrote: That is interesting history! I don't know about the rest of the country, but around here there are several smaller cemeteries that fit the description of cross-roads because modern civilization has created the roads all around them.
My family's cemetery is now surrounded by a Dash Inn, a liquor store, and a small strip mall! That happened in the 1980s, when the last of the old plantation was sold off by later owners. I've always had a mental picture of "spirits" from the graveyard arising during the night and sneaking next door to the liquor store for other "spirits..."
That is true in my neck of the woods in Michigan- there are many small cemeteries here where time has passed them by-and the modern world has been built up all around them. Of course, when the cemeteries were first established there was nothing else there. Now the cemeteries have become popular with teenagers- as they are thought to be haunted- maybe they are.
RE: Rathbone Uncovered - Laurie Verge - 06-07-2013 08:24 AM
We have a rash of tombstone tippings around here. Young gentlemen (or older drunks) go into graveyards at night and tip over any marker they can. This happened in our cemetery about ten years ago. It cost us over $3000 to get everything uprighted and repaired. The idiots don't realize that some of those old tombstones that are eight- and ten-feet high weigh up to a ton and could topple on them. They also steal anything made of metal or bronze and also the antique figurines such as lambs.
Jim - I never thought of it that way. There's a good barbecue joint in that mall also, so I can gnaw on ribs and mac & cheese while communing with my elders. I'm now going online to find a nice cemetery bench to sit on. There's none there at present. P.S. Never had Wild Irish Rose win. How sick will I get?
Forgot to respond to Rich's question about when we learned of the supposed disposition of the Rathbones' remains: To the best of my knowledge, that information started making the rounds with Mike Kauffman after the daughter of a German resident of that area supposedly got the information and gave it to Mike. I am pretty sure that she did not take the trip such as Eva did to verify everything because she reported that the cemetery was destroyed by bombings during WWII. Eva's research is much more thorough.
RE: Rathbone Uncovered - Rsmyth - 06-07-2013 11:56 AM
Thanks laurie!
RE: Rathbone Uncovered - Jim Garrett - 06-07-2013 07:10 PM
Laurie: The Wild Irish Rose wine will probably not go well with good Maryland BBQ. It's usually consumed with food retrieved from large green containers found behind convenience stores. A bench is a wonderful idea. It will be your own little slice of a classic Victorian "park".
RE: Rathbone Uncovered - chrishunter - 06-16-2013 10:21 PM
I've been researching the Rathbone family for about 10 years. There are a couple of descendants living in New York City. I haven't contacted any of them yet and I'm not sure if they are aware of this discovery yet.
(06-06-2013 06:16 AM)Hess1865 Wrote: I wonder if any of Rathbone's descendants (if there are any still alive) knew the truth about the burial situation before Eva found this??
RE: Rathbone Uncovered - emma1231 - 06-17-2013 08:58 AM
To have buried Henry and Clara (and others!) deeper in their graves to make room for newer caskets seems ludicrous to me. It would have been expensive and very time consuming, not to mention extremely disrespectful. Are there any records in that cemetery to that effect? I am skeptical.
RE: Rathbone Uncovered - Eva Elisabeth - 06-17-2013 10:06 AM
Emma,
please see the comment I posted today on the other thread. The handling might seem ludicrous to you, but it is the way they do it, in fact, nowadays and due to their own statement, always did. As I said, there is no law or prescription for the cemeteries what to do. Desposing would have costed the same or even been more costly. Nevertheless there are cemeteries that do this, e.g the one where my father and grandparents are buried. The different traditions seem to be linked to general differences in traditions between Lutherian dominated North and Roman-Catholic areas, where I originally come from. Although disturbing final rest is generally disrespectful, I personally think this way is still less disrespectful than disposal.
RE: Rathbone Uncovered - emma1231 - 06-17-2013 10:11 AM
Oh, well, if you think so. I have no expertise, and must rely on others' research. Seems an awfully expensive thing to do, too. Let us know if you ever come up with any records on this matter!
A sad closing chapter on an already sad and tragic story. You can't make up stuff like this! Someone ought to make a movie about Henry and Clara.
RE: Rathbone Uncovered - Laurie Verge - 06-17-2013 01:06 PM
Richard,
Have you read this complete thread? Eva made the 125-mile+ trek from her home in Germany to the cemetery to research this and did come up with records.
I learned of the European custom of emptying graves and re-selling them decades ago when we did our famous Victorian mourning exhibits here at Surratt House. It has been common practice for many years. I consider the Rathbones lucky in that they were able to remain in their graves - just down one story...
Not too long ago, I read an article that said American cemeteries may soon resort to the same procedure when graves are no longer cared for. The current craze for large mausoleums and cremation are part of the growing concern of running out of space in today's cemeteries.
I have often wondered why the Rathbone children allowed their parents' remains to stay in Germany. Could they have thought there would be even more unwanted publicity if the remains were returned to the U.S.? What was the policy of returning remains in those days? Could caskets be hermetically sealed? Inquiring minds want to know...