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+--- Thread: Fly Through Historic Ford’s Theatre (/thread-4230.html)
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RE: Fly Through Historic Ford’s Theatre - L Verge - 12-07-2019 01:21 PM
Gene - I'm finding more and more researchers/authors in our field are using "perhaps" and other similar "unsourced" terms quite a bit now to cover their derrieres in proposing theories that they are unable to prove...
That said, I suspect that there were quite a few props, pieces of lumber, debris, etc. strewn on the floors behind the scenes at most theaters (then and now) for the lack of cleaning crews, etc. I don't think anything had to be torn off its hinges or the walls in order to get a makeshift stretcher for the President. Maneuvering him out of the box might be an issue -- and certainly getting that non-flexible board down the winding stairs would take a bit of skill. The width of the stair would allow no more than three men in my estimation to bear the litter downwards -- one at the feet, walking backwards and leading; two at the head, holding things level. I would even hazard a guess that two (one at each end) carried Mr. Lincoln down the stairs and then were joined by others to get him across the street.
Anyone been a coffin bearer in the days before the dead were wheeled into church? I think there were generally six, with two at the head, two in the middle, and two at the feet. Not sure that the stairs at Ford's had the width to accommodate that many because I've been to services in colonial churches where the aisle is almost too small to accommodate the coffin and the men.
RE: Fly Through Historic Ford’s Theatre - RJNorton - 12-07-2019 02:27 PM
Here is the only eyewitness painting of the scene. It was done by Carl Bersch and is entitled "Lincoln Borne By Loving Hands."
![[Image: bornebylovinghands.jpg]](http://rogerjnorton.com/bornebylovinghands.jpg)
Bersch wrote, "I had a clear view of the scene, above the heads of the crowd. I recognized the lengthy form of the President by the flickering light of the torches, and one large gas lamp post on the sidewalk. The tarrying at the curb and the slow, careful manner in which he was carried across the street, gave me ample time to make an accurate sketch of that particular scene…Altogether it was the most tragic and impressive scene I have ever witnessed."
My aging eyes cannot tell for sure, but it does appear to me Lincoln is being carried on some sort of board.
RE: Fly Through Historic Ford’s Theatre - Anita - 12-07-2019 05:39 PM
Given the obsession at the time (which continues today) I'm surprised it wasn't saved as a relic in it's entirety or cut up and sold by the square inch.
RE: Fly Through Historic Ford’s Theatre - Tom Bogar - 12-07-2019 06:16 PM
In terms of the question about time, as near as I have been able to determine, the shot occurred at 10:14, and within minutes soldiers were rushing into the theatre, with several of them beginning to clear the street in front of Ford's by 10:20, when the group began carrying Lincoln from the box on a (single) shutter. Perhaps--Laurie's favorite word
--Tanner's or Leale's accounts are more specific, although Tanner wasn't called down (at Gen. Augur's request) until nearly midnight, I believe. According to at least one first-person account (sorry, I don't have time right now to dig through all my files for who), several shutters were stacked against the wall of the theatre outside the box (near the SW corner of the second level of the theatre).
RE: Fly Through Historic Ford’s Theatre - LincolnMan - 12-08-2019 06:28 AM
Thanks Tom!
(12-07-2019 02:27 PM)RJNorton Wrote: Here is the only eyewitness painting of the scene. It was done by Carl Bersch and is entitled "Lincoln Borne By Loving Hands."
Bersch wrote, "I had a clear view of the scene, above the heads of the crowd. I recognized the lengthy form of the President by the flickering light of the torches, and one large gas lamp post on the sidewalk. The tarrying at the curb and the slow, careful manner in which he was carried across the street, gave me ample time to make an accurate sketch of that particular scene…Altogether it was the most tragic and impressive scene I have ever witnessed."
My aging eyes cannot tell for sure, but it does appear to me Lincoln is being carried on some sort of board.
Lincoln does appear to be on a board for sure.
From an artistic viewpoint Lincoln’s head has a halo-like whiteness circling around it. He is also surrounded by two very large American flags. Much symbolism there I think.
RE: Fly Through Historic Ford’s Theatre - Dennis Urban - 12-09-2019 03:58 PM
(12-07-2019 06:16 PM)Tom Bogar Wrote: In terms of the question about time, as near as I have been able to determine, the shot occurred at 10:14, and within minutes soldiers were rushing into the theatre, with several of them beginning to clear the street in front of Ford's by 10:20, when the group began carrying Lincoln from the box on a (single) shutter. Perhaps--Laurie's favorite word
I appreciate seeing the 10:14 time of the shot. Mr. Bogar's book does not contain any reference to the shutters he now mentions. However, I have seen references in other books to Lincoln being carried on a "door". I'd also like to know the origin of the reference to the shutters being stacked outside the box near the SW corner of the building and one of them being used to carry the President. Seems like there would have been more than one witness reference to these shutters. Ford's Theatre did not have window shutters at this time, so why would several be stored inside on the second floor unless John Ford was going to install them. Apparently Ford never commented on them either.
The painting also seems to depict a pillow under Lincoln's head. That, and the flags, probably represent the artistic license taken by Bersch. I doubt the flag was in the street and also one was not likely hanging from the theatre. With all that said, I understand how unreliable many witnesses to the same event can be.
RE: Fly Through Historic Ford’s Theatre - L Verge - 12-09-2019 08:25 PM
As for the stack of shutters, what says they were intended for use on the outside of the theater? My instincts would be to see what performances were held before Our American Cousin - or after. I would think they were props either coming or going for use. Is there a record/dateline of playbills for other performances around that period at Ford's?
RE: Fly Through Historic Ford’s Theatre - RJNorton - 12-10-2019 05:25 AM
I need to correct something I had posted earlier. When I first looked through Tim Good's We Saw Lincoln Shot: One Hundred Eyewitness Accounts I found two mentions of the word "shutter." But I have since looked again and found two more mentions of it. W.H. Taylor, who was in the dress circle, said, "On nearing the doorway we saw men approaching from the passage-way back of the box with the form of the President carried on an improvised stretcher - as it now seems to me a window shutter or something of that nature - and we stopped to let them pass." Also, Captain Oliver C. Gatch, also sitting in the dress circle, said, "A shutter was hastily secured as a stretcher..."
RE: Fly Through Historic Ford’s Theatre - LincolnMan - 12-10-2019 06:28 AM
(12-09-2019 03:58 PM)Dennis Urban Wrote:(12-07-2019 06:16 PM)Tom Bogar Wrote: In terms of the question about time, as near as I have been able to determine, the shot occurred at 10:14, and within minutes soldiers were rushing into the theatre, with several of them beginning to clear the street in front of Ford's by 10:20, when the group began carrying Lincoln from the box on a (single) shutter. Perhaps--Laurie's favorite word
I appreciate seeing the 10:14 time of the shot. Mr. Bogar's book does not contain any reference to the shutters he now mentions. However, I have seen references in other books to Lincoln being carried on a "door". I'd also like to know the origin of the reference to the shutters being stacked outside the box near the SW corner of the building and one of them being used to carry the President. Seems like there would have been more than one witness reference to these shutters. Ford's Theatre did not have window shutters at this time, so why would several be stored inside on the second floor unless John Ford was going to install them. Apparently Ford never commented on them either.
The painting also seems to depict a pillow under Lincoln's head. That, and the flags, probably represent the artistic license taken by Bersch. I doubt the flag was in the street and also one was not likely hanging from the theatre. With all that said, I understand how unreliable many witnesses to the same event can be.
About the flags: I also suspect that it was artistic license- probably meant to convey patriotism regarding Lincoln and the people.
RE: Fly Through Historic Ford’s Theatre - STS Lincolnite - 12-12-2019 09:10 PM
(12-09-2019 03:58 PM)Dennis Urban Wrote: I appreciate seeing the 10:14 time of the shot. Mr. Bogar's book does not contain any reference to the shutters he now mentions. However, I have seen references in other books to Lincoln being carried on a "door". I'd also like to know the origin of the reference to the shutters being stacked outside the box near the SW corner of the building and one of them being used to carry the President. Seems like there would have been more than one witness reference to these shutters.
Thoughts on a couple of statements from your post.
1) “Mr. Bogar's book does not contain any reference to the shutters he now mentions. However, I have seen references in other books to Lincoln being carried on a ‘door.’.”
I clearly recalled reading about Lincoln being carried on a shutter in Tom’s book (or so I thought) – primarily because I also recall having a conversation with him about it some years ago. I wanted to check my memory so I pulled out my copy of Backstage at the Lincoln Assassination. And sure enough, a very quick check found on page 271 of his book the following: “…Kate Evans, too, began to grant interviews. She spoke of everyone’s reactions at the moment of the shot, and of seeing Lincoln carried out on a shutter.” Endnote refers to an article from the Macon (GA) Weekly Telegraph.
2) “Seems like there would have been more than one witness reference to these shutters.” [referring to the stacked shutters]
This is an interesting point. It speaks to what witnesses and their questioners might pick out as important enough to include in their statements or reports.
I had a lengthy conversation with an historian about a year ago. Although, it was related to an altogether different topic, we too were discussing the credibility of witness accounts and what information was included. Several others got involved in our discussion, and a point was brought up related to theory regarding eyewitness testimony (the theory was new to me). Apparently, there is a theory that witnesses only really recall and report those things that they find out of the ordinary (unless they are prompted otherwise by very specific and pointed questioning). The mundane things they regularly see they leave out of their accounts. For example if I was on the street yesterday just before a murder had occurred and had seen a man wearing a top hat going down the street in a horse drawn buggy, relevant or not, I would probably remember and report it – because it was out of the ordinary. But in 1865, a man wearing a top hat going down the street in a horse drawn buggy would not have been out of the ordinary and would have garnered little to no attention at all. No one would necessarily report it because it was a regular occurrence.
As historians looking back, we crave even the most minute details. But in the context of the time, if there were stacked shutters I’m surprised anyone would report it at all. Those shutters had nothing to do with the murder or the murderer. For all we know there could have been similar materials stacked all over and in different parts of the theatre what with constant building, tearing down, and re-building of various sets. And while Lincoln may have been carried out on a shutter, where it came from probably wouldn’t have been considered important at all in the moment.
What police officers or court officials thought was important or unimportant in 1865 and the methods they used in questioning were radically different than what similar professionals of today would use and would find important or unimportant. I can’t even tell you how many times I have read the various interrogation or court transcripts from the Lincoln Assassination and screamed at the book “Why didn’t you ask…?” or “Why didn’t you follow up on…?” Just a different perspective looking back 150 years.