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+--- Forum: Assassination (/forum-5.html)
+--- Thread: The Dahlgren Raid (/thread-387.html)
RE: The Dahlgren Raid - Gene C - 05-22-2015 12:01 PM
(05-22-2015 11:44 AM)L Verge Wrote: Did you see what I posted after you on our original thread on Booth's mental health related to the Raid? You switched categories and threw me off!!!
The Dahlgren question boils down (IMO) to 1. Was Dahlgren truly reckless enough to create his own "orders" and convince his troops to follow him? 2. Were Meade and others using the old trick of denial to make their plan go away and relieve the pressure from them?
Yes, and I enjoyed your post
Good question and I don't know
( I learned and found it interesting that Dahlgren had an artificial leg, which I find unusaul for someone in the cavalry)
I wanted to share a link and web site about the raid, and didn't want the subject to dominate Juan's topic.
RE: The Dahlgren Raid - L Verge - 05-22-2015 02:24 PM
President Lincoln was distressed by the failure of the raid and particularly by the death of Ulric Dahlgren. According to writer Duane Schultz, "a reporter asked President Lincoln about the expedition and his part in the planning of it. Lincoln, after expressing his pleasure in Kilpatrick's safe return and sorrow for the loss of Dahlgren, replied that he had given his consent to the raid. He added that, even though some of his generals had pronounced the scheme impracticable, he had been willing to attempt it. Releasing the prisoners had seemed worth the risk."
Prisoner release was definitely a big issue in the last year of the war on both sides. Jubal Early's raid on D.C. included a plan for Gen. Bradley Johnson's men to attack Point Lookout in Southern Maryland; Booth's original plot was to kidnap for prisoner exchange; Kilpatrick and Dahlgren are aiming to free Union captives.
Gene - as far as Dahlgren's leg, I think I read somewhere that it was amputated a little above the foot after behing injured at Gettysburg. I also think he was brought to his father's home, Admiral Dahlgren, to recuperate but nearly died.
There is an interesting side story that I don't have time to look up; but after he was killed, he was buried in a Richmond graveyard. The famous Union spy, but Richmond native, Elizabeth Van Lew supposedly had the body secretly dug up and reburied outside of the city on the farm of a Union supporter. When the Admiral wanted his son's body, he had to do a bit of searching until the chaos of the immediate collapse of the Confederacy allowed him to find it.
RE: The Dahlgren Raid - Gene C - 05-23-2015 07:38 AM
After some additional reading, I am beginning to lean toward the position that the Dahlgren papers are real, and written by Ulric Dahlgren. Who authorized his actions, if anyone, is still questionable to me and I plan to do some additional reading. I found this article very informative. It is a bit long.
http://www.historynet.com/jefferson-davis
One of the nice things about Roger's site is all the knowledgeable, friendly people here and the opportunity to learn new things. While I'm not quite ready to eat crow, I'm on the lookout for some palatable Humble Pie. This place might work.
http://humblepieok.com/menu
Thanks to those who gave me an incentive to learn more about a part of history where my knowledge was limited.
Now if I can just find this restaurant a little closer to home.
RE: The Dahlgren Raid - L Verge - 05-23-2015 10:05 AM
(05-23-2015 07:38 AM)Gene C Wrote: After some additional reading, I am beginning to lean toward the position that the Dahlgren papers are real, and written by Ulric Dahlgren. Who authorized his actions, if anyone, is still questionable to me and I plan to do some additional reading. I found this article very informative. It is a bit long.
http://www.historynet.com/jefferson-davis
One of the nice things about Roger's site is all the knowledgeable, friendly people here and the opportunity to learn new things. While I'm not quite ready to eat crow, I'm on the lookout for some palatable Humble Pie. This place might work.
http://humblepieok.com/menu
Thanks to those who gave me an incentive to learn more about a part of history where my knowledge was limited.
Now if I can just find a location a little closer to home.
Thanks for sharing that HistoryNet article, Gene. I had never seen it and learned quite a few new details - including this quote:
"Perhaps, too, Lincoln repeated for the cavalryman a remark he had made at the time of Chancellorsville, to the effect that the Confederate capital was so lightly defended that Kilpatrick’s Federal cavalry ‘could have safely gone in and burnt every thing & brought us Jeff Davis.’4 Certainly the thought of Davis’ capture was fresh in the president’s mind–after all, he approved it as a stated objective of Butler’s recently aborted Richmond raid. (It may be noted here that by the generally accepted rules of civilized warfare of the 1860s, the capture of the opposing head of state and his chief advisers was a legitimate wartime objective and no doubt was discussed as openly in Richmond as it was in Washington. Assassination of civilian leaders, on the other hand, was regarded as beyond the pale.) Whatever their discussion may have included, when Lincoln sent Kilpatrick on to Secretary of War Stanton to work out the detailed planning for the raid, Jefferson Davis was not listed in any respect as a stated objective.
"As will be seen, there is good reason to believe that Kilpatrick’s planning meeting in Stanton’s office at the War Department was pivotal in regard to the case of the Dahlgren papers. For now, suffice it to say that the sole surviving account of the meeting is Kilpatrick’s, dated February 16, and consists of his plan for the raid as submitted, at Stanton’s request, to the army’s cavalry command."
The first sentence of the first paragraph says a lot about Lincoln's previous thoughts if his troops could get to Richmond... The rest seems to imply that those thoughts might later be committed to strategy at the meeting of Kilpatrick and Stanton??
BTW: My thoughts exactly about the discussions on this forum. I find myself googling a lot these days in order to keep up with some of you and your great knowledge.
RE: The Dahlgren Raid - RJNorton - 05-23-2015 03:29 PM
(05-23-2015 07:38 AM)Gene C Wrote: Who authorized his actions, if anyone, is still questionable to me and I plan to do some additional reading.
Gene, David Long wrote an article for North & South magazine in which he argued it was Lincoln himself who ordered Davis to be captured or killed. I do not have the magazine. Do you (or anyone) know if this article can be found online? I would like to read it. Thanks.
RE: The Dahlgren Raid - L Verge - 05-23-2015 05:30 PM
David was a speaker at one of the early Surratt conferences, and at that time was very much into the Dahlgren Raid. He passed away about a year ago, and I don't think he ever completed his book on the subject. The last book I remember of his was Jewel of Liberty.
(05-23-2015 05:30 PM)L Verge Wrote: David was a speaker at one of the early Surratt conferences, and at that time was very much into the Dahlgren Raid. He passed away about a year ago, and I don't think he ever completed his book on the subject. The last book I remember of his was Jewel of Liberty.
The North & South issue that we are looking for is #5 for October 2006, pg. 70. In the process of looking for that, I did find A review:
'Lincoln, Davis, and the Dahlgren Raid by David E. Long - The Dahlgren Raid has always been controversial. Papers were found on the body of young Colonel Ulric Dahlgren after he had been shot and killed on the expedition. These papers authorized him to capture or assassinate Confederate President Jefferson Davis. Some believe Lincoln’s assassination was a direct response to this affair. But who gave Dahlgren those orders? David E. Long believes that the evidence conclusively points to none other than President Lincoln himself, and sets out to convince readers of this version of events in the article. His main focus early on is the extremely close relationship between Lincoln and Ulric Dahlgren’s father, Rear Admiral John Dahlgren. Then the author moves on to specific meetings and covers the various aspects of what actually happened between Frebruary 28 and March 3, 1864. He also is quick to mention that although the raid is most commonly referred to as the Kilpatrick-Dahlgren Raid, he believes Kilpatrick and his large force were meant to deceive the public and posterity as to who was really blame for the assassination attempt. Cavalry author and future Ulric Dahlgren biographer Eric Wittenberg posted some interesting comments on this article on his blog."
In the process of looking for Long's work, I also found mentions of a book by Duane Schultz, The Dahlgren Affrair: Terror and Conspiracy in the Civil War. Other mentions were about articles on the subject:
Dr. Joseph E. George - Black Flag Warfare: Lincoln and the Raids Against Richmond and Jefferson Davis, Pennsylvania Magazine of History and Biographies - July 1991.
James O. Hall - The Dahlgren Papers: Fact or Fiction, Civil War Times Illustrated, November 1983.
James McPherson - A Failed Richmond Raid and Its Consequences, Columbiad, Winter 1999.
David F. Riggs - The Dahlgren Papers Reconsidered, LIncoln Herald 1998.
RE: The Dahlgren Raid - SSlater - 06-02-2015 05:39 PM
Pardon my delay in joining in - my computer could not make the connection. I hope it's fixed.
The Dahlgren Raid, and the one just before it -the Wistar Raid, were both failures, because the Confederacy had " A fox in the henhouse". There was a Confederate spy working in the front office of the National Detective Police, - Lafayette Bakers Secret Service.
Baker's First D. C. Cavalry were participants in the Raid. No doubt, they discussed the Raid, in the Office, as they prepared to Go. The South knew their plans and were more prepared for the Raids than the North was. Incidentally the Spy was William Andrew Norton. After the war, he married Fanny Dade, also a Spy, for BOTH SIDES. When we get to know more about what was going on, we are better prepared to form an opinion about whether it was good or other.
When I read this Raid - the Dahlgren Raid - I get the feeling that since the South just won a big victory, they were assured that they would win this one too. Why not use the occasion to gain a victory on the world market, too?
I think that the South prepared the papers and they were not found on any "bodies". They were already in the hands of the Press for world wide distribution, when released. That ***** about finding the papers on the bodies and carrying them to Commanders, is malarkey!
I'm surprised that they were not found by a "starving widow with nine kids who FOUND the papers and crawled to Richmond to deliver them."
Yes, Lincoln approved the Raid. As he would approve any Raid. I don't see Black Flag Warfare here. (He didn't know what the papers
said, the South wrote them). If Dahlgren went in with a White Flag and started to Killing everyone - that's Black Flag.
The South went one step more - they hid the body of a Union Commanders son, a Hero, and wouldn't let anyone have the remains or even see them.
The whole affair is so amateur and foolish, that I.M surprised that it worked.
RE: The Dahlgren Raid - Jim Garrett - 06-03-2015 09:23 AM
John, your extensive knowledge of covert operations is remarkable. In "Come Retribution" Col. Thomas H. Williamson is mentioned. He is an interesting character and I have not found much of an official record on him. I am interested in your opinion of what he was doing on the Northern Neck in April 1865. He was my great grandfather's cousin.
RE: The Dahlgren Raid - RJNorton - 06-03-2015 12:48 PM
(06-02-2015 05:39 PM)SSlater Wrote: Yes, Lincoln approved the Raid. As he would approve any Raid. I don't see Black Flag Warfare here. (He didn't know what the papers said, the South wrote them).
John, I second Jim in complementing you on your knowledge!
Am I reading correctly what you said above - that you disagree with what David Long wrote (Long argued it was Lincoln himself who ordered Davis to be captured or killed)?
RE: The Dahlgren Raid - L Verge - 06-03-2015 02:05 PM
Mr. Hall used to pose the question as to who had the authority to approve the assassination of a head of state except another head of state...
Hall, Tidwell, Gaddy, John, and Jane Singer have made large dents in trying to "decipher" the Confederate secret service, but there's a lot still left unknown. I remember Bill Tidwell once saying that his portion of Come Retribution was going to be a textbook on how to build an espionage force. He swore that the French Resistance during WWII studied the Confederate system and knew more about it than Americans.
RE: The Dahlgren Raid - Gene C - 06-03-2015 04:22 PM
I would disagree with David Long. Considering Lincoln was ok with Davis escaping after the war (showing the lack of revenge or vindictiveness) , I don't think he had the mind set of authorizing his assassination. The political repurcussions in the north and south of a Northern officer assassinating Davis (with Lincoln's approval) could have been a disaster. It would also hurt Lincoln's lenient reconstruction objectives.
RE: The Dahlgren Raid - SSlater - 06-03-2015 09:19 PM
(06-03-2015 09:23 AM)Jim Garrett Wrote: John, your extensive knowledge of covert operations is remarkable. In "Come Retribution" Col. Thomas H. Williamson is mentioned. He is an interesting character and I have not found much of an official record on him. I am interested in your opinion of what he was doing on the Northern Neck in April 1865. He was my great grandfather's cousin.I hope there is enough room to answer you.
Most of what I- have is based on facts, mixed with my opinion.
Thomas Hoomes Williamson b Richmond Aug. 30 1813 died Mar. 31, 1888 buried Stonewall Jackson Cem. Lexington, VA. Wife Louisa Garnett. He wrote a book "My Service with Stonewall Jackson" (available on-line at VMI Site.) He attended West Point but did not Graduate. I've come to the conclusion that he came to King George to "Diplomatically" organize an "Escape Committee". He had that West point time, and Officially made Colonel (some references to him as General). King George, as many other places too, was in a turmoil. "Left over Security Forces", Deserters trying to cross the River, Parolees, some waiting Parole, etc. but what made KG different - Capt. Thomas Nelson Conrad and Lt. Charles H Cawood and their crews, were still on active duty. Yeah! on into April. (Hmmm. they knew there would be an abduction, but did they know there would be an assassination?) {PS. They had been called to Richmond in early April to be briefed on the Abduction - that's why Cawood was not here when Thomas Jones was yelling for help.} Back to Williamson. He had tact, and training, and prestige. So he became the Official Rep for the non-existent Confederacy. Which raises many many questions. There were other people milling around here like Ruggles, Jett, Mason, Crismond, Harbin etc. etc. They needed leadership. I think that was Williamson. BUT - he was not in uniform.
I have to believe that elements of the Security Guard were hiding in the weeds nearby. {PS. General Charles W. Fields was here, at that time- he had married Enoch Mason's sister} He would have been too "Army" to organize a Civilian Escapee Committee, and would have tied the effort to Davis. This arrangement was more subdued.
Want more? (JOHN) " Sarah " (LOL)
RE: The Dahlgren Raid - Pamela - 06-03-2015 10:57 PM
(06-03-2015 02:05 PM)L Verge Wrote: Mr. Hall used to pose the question as to who had the authority to approve the assassination of a head of state except another head of state...
Hall, Tidwell, Gaddy, John, and Jane Singer have made large dents in trying to "decipher" the Confederate secret service, but there's a lot still left unknown. I remember Bill Tidwell once saying that his portion of Come Retribution was going to be a textbook on how to build an espionage force. He swore that the French Resistance during WWII studied the Confederate system and knew more about it than Americans.
Maybe I'm wrong, but I thought the Union and Lincoln didn't consider Davis a head of state since they didn't regard the Confederacy as a country, just the southern states in rebellion. Had the South won, I guess Davis would have been a head of state.
RE: The Dahlgren Raid - Jim Garrett - 06-03-2015 11:47 PM
Col. Williamson was a man with gravitas. He was well respected throughout the state, and from an old Virginia family. His wife was the sister to the two Garnett generals and he was not overly ambitious, instead, he was very settled and self-controlled. In Kricks work on Confederate staff officers, he says that Williamson was often mistaken for R.E.Lee. Probably the perfect man to manage an unmanageable situation.
RE: The Dahlgren Raid - L Verge - 06-04-2015 09:02 AM
(06-03-2015 10:57 PM)Pamela Wrote:(06-03-2015 02:05 PM)L Verge Wrote: Mr. Hall used to pose the question as to who had the authority to approve the assassination of a head of state except another head of state...
Hall, Tidwell, Gaddy, John, and Jane Singer have made large dents in trying to "decipher" the Confederate secret service, but there's a lot still left unknown. I remember Bill Tidwell once saying that his portion of Come Retribution was going to be a textbook on how to build an espionage force. He swore that the French Resistance during WWII studied the Confederate system and knew more about it than Americans.
That was likely Lincoln's "politically correct" stance and the one proclaimed to the public, but Lincoln was a pragmatist who wanted to end the war as soon as possible. I cannot believe (and this is strictly my thought), that he did not believe that Jefferson Davis was the top dog in the opposition and needed to be removed. How many politicians do we know of that think one thing in the Oval Office and say something else in the White House Press Room?
Maybe I'm wrong, but I thought the Union and Lincoln didn't consider Davis a head of state since they didn't regard the Confederacy as a country, just the southern states in rebellion. Had the South won, I guess Davis would have been a head of state.