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+--- Thread: Andrew Johnson - Mistress (/thread-3543.html)
RE: Andrew Johnson - Mistress - Steve - 11-14-2017 03:24 PM
Does anybody know what happened to Ella Starr after the assassination?
In regards to Jerry's theory about Ella, I find it extremely unlikely because if Booth had a woman "entertain" Johnson, he likely would've had to inform Atzerodt as a precaution to prevent Atzerodt being scared away from completing the attack on Johnson upon hearing a woman's voice. That nothing like this came out during the trial and investigation when Atzerodt would have every reason to bring it to light is good reason to believe it didn't happen.
As for Eusebia and Johnson. I find it unlikely she would go to him before he was President to ask for a pardon when he really had no influence over Lincoln in those matters. Besides how would the Philadelphia Evening Telegraph, learn that she had done that if both she and Johnson had not told anybody in two decades (well for Johnson, one decade)?
RE: Andrew Johnson - Mistress - RJNorton - 11-14-2017 03:34 PM
(11-14-2017 03:24 PM)Steve Wrote: Does anybody know what happened to Ella Starr after the assassination?
Steve, Jenny is an expert on Ella Starr. I shall write her and let her know of your question. Hopefully, she will respond.
RE: Andrew Johnson - Mistress - Steve - 11-14-2017 03:55 PM
(11-14-2017 03:34 PM)RJNorton Wrote:Thanks. I've always wondered what happened to her afterwards.(11-14-2017 03:24 PM)Steve Wrote: Does anybody know what happened to Ella Starr after the assassination?
Steve, Jenny is an expert on Ella Starr. I shall write her and let her know of your question. Hopefully, she will respond.
RE: Andrew Johnson - Mistress - jparkuntz - 11-14-2017 06:45 PM
(11-14-2017 01:47 PM)L Verge Wrote:(11-14-2017 08:08 AM)Gene C Wrote: I just can't believe it. What president would be foolish enough to have an improper relationship like that while president in the White House?
.......... never mind
Says Gene with tongue in cheek...
(11-14-2017 08:57 AM)jparkuntz Wrote: Here's how the Philadelphia Evening Telegraph described Eusebia's meeting with Johnson to get a second pardon for her husband. It's just dripping with irony:
"The President could not withstand the irresistible and fascinating influences that were brought to bear in behalf of the prisoner, and that extraordinary generosity and magnanimity of soul that prompted the first pardon induced him to grant a second, and once more was the culprit released from custody.
"It is no more than just to remark that both these pardons were in a great measure attributable to the indomitable and persevering efforts of the prisoner’s wife. She is represented as a woman of more than ordinary persuasive powers, and she left no means unemployed that a woman can employ to accomplish the release of her convicted husband. She was almost ubiquitous, restless, sleepless…it would have been impossible for even a sterner nature than that of our susceptible President to have avoided yielding to the pressure and power of so much beauty, eloquence, and matrimonial solicitude."
Does a picture exist of this persuasive woman?
As for the theory that Booth had sent Ella to keep Johnson "occupied" and at home, Jerry knows that I have serious reservations about that. First, I don't think that even Booth was that big a cad to ask her to do something like that and second, that he would subject her to witnessing a murder if Atzerodt or Herold did get up enough nerve. You can just call me a romantic at heart.
I have a photo of Eusebia when she was very old, and fleshy. At her 1885 trial, she kept a veil over her face; an engraving of her was printed in the National Police Gazette with the veil. The written descriptions of her when she was younger describe a stunningly beautiful blonde woman, with a regal bearing, dressed in the latest fashions with much jewelry. By 1885, the newspapers were not complimenting her looks; but by my calculation she was then 55, though she usually tried to shave 15 or more years off.
Here's a throwaway fact about her: before the war, in Philadelphia she was staying at a boarding house that was also inhabited by Charles Dunham (Sandford Conover). It was a small world for shady characters, as well as the famous.
Jerry Kuntz
Warwick NY
RE: Andrew Johnson - Mistress - L Verge - 11-14-2017 06:48 PM
(11-14-2017 03:55 PM)Steve Wrote:(11-14-2017 03:34 PM)RJNorton Wrote:Thanks. I've always wondered what happened to her afterwards.(11-14-2017 03:24 PM)Steve Wrote: Does anybody know what happened to Ella Starr after the assassination?
Steve, Jenny is an expert on Ella Starr. I shall write her and let her know of your question. Hopefully, she will respond.
Jenny is definitely the expert on Ella. I suppose you are aware that Ella attempted suicide upon finding out what Booth had done.
Terry Alford supposedly tracked down her life after the assassination, but never revealed it in Fortune's Fool. I have asked him numerous times about her, and all he would say is that she "married well." Frankly, I'm a little miffed that he has not told us more since members of our staff and quite a few Society members were helpful to him over the decades that it took to get Fortune's Fool written.
Have any of you been in touch with him since the book came out? I know he had another project in mind, but have not heard from him for several years.
RE: Andrew Johnson - Mistress - Jim Garrett - 11-14-2017 07:05 PM
(11-14-2017 08:34 AM)RJNorton Wrote:Ford's was less than 3 short blocks from the Kirkwood.(11-14-2017 08:03 AM)jparkuntz Wrote: What time did Farwell knock?
There is some relatively small variance in assassination books as to exactly when the shot was fired, but I think Ford's Theatre was only a few blocks from the Kirkwood House. Depending on how fast Farwell moved, and the fact that he apparently did not wait at Ford's to hear the seriousness of Lincoln's injury, I would guess he arrived at Johnson's residence c.10:40 P.M.
RE: Andrew Johnson - Mistress - JMadonna - 11-14-2017 07:58 PM
(11-14-2017 03:24 PM)Steve Wrote: In regards to Jerry's theory about Ella, I find it extremely unlikely because if Booth had a woman "entertain" Johnson, he likely would've had to inform Atzerodt as a precaution to prevent Atzerodt being scared away from completing the attack on Johnson upon hearing a woman's voice. That nothing like this came out during the trial and investigation when Atzerodt would have every reason to bring it to light is good reason to believe it didn't happen.
Steve,
It's true that there is nothing in the official record that says this happened.
But Atzerodt's attorney said in his memoirs:
“Atzerodt from the time I first saw him until he was executed told the same story which he afterwards told in his confession – that he knew nothing of the assassination plot, until 2 hours before it was carried out and that he refused to have anything to do with it. Being in as far as he was he had to keep up appearances. His part was to kill Mr. Johnson, he said. He had ample opportunity but did not intend to do it. His defense lay mainly in showing this: that he had abundant occasion to carry out such an intention had it existed, that the president (Johnson) was in his room all night with his door open.
How could George have known that Johnson's door was not locked if not from Booth? How could Booth have known? Why was Johnson in his bed (Farwell's testimony) while the rest of Washington was drinking merrily in the streets?
Booth had to have had a woman inside Johnson's room to make certain the door was unlocked and Johnson was home that evening.
No Washington official would ever disclose that Johnson was with a hooker during Lincoln's assassination. Therefore there is nothing in the official record that can dispute that it didn't happen that way.
That's my theory. Take it or leave it.
RE: Andrew Johnson - Mistress - Steve - 11-15-2017 02:12 AM
Is there any significance to "Miss Eliza Thomas", the woman who ran the house of prostitution that Starr resided in? What I mean is, did she cater to politicians like Johnson?
RE: Andrew Johnson - Mistress - RJNorton - 11-15-2017 04:58 AM
I have written Jenny to see if she has anything more on Ella Starr, but in the meantime, she posted a lot of her research here.
RE: Andrew Johnson - Mistress - RJNorton - 11-15-2017 05:12 AM
(11-14-2017 01:47 PM)L Verge Wrote: and second, that he would subject her to witnessing a murder if Atzerodt or Herold did get up enough nerve.
Laurie, IMO, it would not have mattered if Ella were in Johnson's room or not. I once asked whether Booth would have shot Lincoln had Tad not gone to Grover's and was sitting next to his dad at Ford's. As I recall, almost everyone felt it would not have mattered to Booth, and he would have shot Lincoln in front of Tad. IMO, Booth was totally determined to take out the leaders of the Union government, and his mistress in Johnson's room or Lincoln's son at Ford's would not have altered the plan.
RE: Andrew Johnson - Mistress - L Verge - 11-16-2017 01:08 PM
(11-15-2017 05:12 AM)RJNorton Wrote:(11-14-2017 01:47 PM)L Verge Wrote: and second, that he would subject her to witnessing a murder if Atzerodt or Herold did get up enough nerve.
Laurie, IMO, it would not have mattered if Ella were in Johnson's room or not. I once asked whether Booth would have shot Lincoln had Tad not gone to Grover's and was sitting next to his dad at Ford's. As I recall, almost everyone felt it would not have mattered to Booth, and he would have shot Lincoln in front of Tad. IMO, Booth was totally determined to take out the leaders of the Union government, and his mistress in Johnson's room or Lincoln's son at Ford's would not have altered the plan.
You are probably right -- and if that had been the case and I were Ella, I would have joined in the manhunt also in an attempt to "assassinate" my lover!
RE: Andrew Johnson - Mistress - Steve - 11-16-2017 07:26 PM
(11-14-2017 07:58 PM)JMadonna Wrote: Steve,The simplest explanation of how Atzerodt could know Johnson's room was unlocked was that he actually made it to Johnson's door sometime that night before deciding not to carry out the attack and that he later exaggerated his reticence to kill Johnson in order to try and escape the hangman's noose.
It's true that there is nothing in the official record that says this happened.
But Atzerodt's attorney said in his memoirs:
“Atzerodt from the time I first saw him until he was executed told the same story which he afterwards told in his confession – that he knew nothing of the assassination plot, until 2 hours before it was carried out and that he refused to have anything to do with it. Being in as far as he was he had to keep up appearances. His part was to kill Mr. Johnson, he said. He had ample opportunity but did not intend to do it. His defense lay mainly in showing this: that he had abundant occasion to carry out such an intention had it existed, that the president (Johnson) was in his room all night with his door open.
How could George have known that Johnson's door was not locked if not from Booth? How could Booth have known? Why was Johnson in his bed (Farwell's testimony) while the rest of Washington was drinking merrily in the streets?
Booth had to have had a woman inside Johnson's room to make certain the door was unlocked and Johnson was home that evening.
No Washington official would ever disclose that Johnson was with a hooker during Lincoln's assassination. Therefore there is nothing in the official record that can dispute that it didn't happen that way.
That's my theory. Take it or leave it.
Assuming that didn't happen or that Atzerodt's attorney wasn't somehow mistaken, then I agree with you the information would almost certainly have to come from Booth. If so, I can't help but feel that the note Booth left at the Kirkwood is somehow related to how he got the information the door would be unlocked.
I suppose it's possible Booth could've arranged for an employee at the Kirkwood to unlock Johnson's door and that Johnson was just napping or drinking alone.
If there was a woman hiding in the room, I still feel it's unlikely to have been Starr. I just think it would've come out if she had been with Johnson that night, especially after her suicide attempt.
Jerry, I would offer this slight variation on your theory that I think might be more plausible. In her statement Starr said she first came to Washington in December 1864 but had known Booth for about 3 years prior to the assassination. December was also a month where Booth's plotting really got into high gear. What if Booth convinced her to move to Washington and convinced her to work in a house of prostitution that that catered to high up people in an attempt to learn information about those people through the gossip passed among the girls of the house then passed along in bedroom banter between Booth and Starr. Booth could've learned that one of the other girls had Johnson as a client and that she liked to keep her client's doors unlocked for safety reasons.
I should point out that Starr's statement said that she hadn't seen Booth in 2 weeks, although that would also apply to the idea that she was in the room with Johnson.
Just to be clear, I'm not saying that I believe, disbelieve or am advocating for the above theory yet; I'm just putting it out as a response/thought experiment to yours.
RE: Andrew Johnson - Mistress - jparkuntz - 11-16-2017 09:29 PM
(11-16-2017 07:26 PM)Steve Wrote:(11-14-2017 07:58 PM)JMadonna Wrote: Steve,The simplest explanation of how Atzerodt could know Johnson's room was unlocked was that he actually made it to Johnson's door sometime that night before deciding not to carry out the attack and that he later exaggerated his reticence to kill Johnson in order to try and escape the hangman's noose.
It's true that there is nothing in the official record that says this happened.
But Atzerodt's attorney said in his memoirs:
“Atzerodt from the time I first saw him until he was executed told the same story which he afterwards told in his confession – that he knew nothing of the assassination plot, until 2 hours before it was carried out and that he refused to have anything to do with it. Being in as far as he was he had to keep up appearances. His part was to kill Mr. Johnson, he said. He had ample opportunity but did not intend to do it. His defense lay mainly in showing this: that he had abundant occasion to carry out such an intention had it existed, that the president (Johnson) was in his room all night with his door open.
How could George have known that Johnson's door was not locked if not from Booth? How could Booth have known? Why was Johnson in his bed (Farwell's testimony) while the rest of Washington was drinking merrily in the streets?
Booth had to have had a woman inside Johnson's room to make certain the door was unlocked and Johnson was home that evening.
No Washington official would ever disclose that Johnson was with a hooker during Lincoln's assassination. Therefore there is nothing in the official record that can dispute that it didn't happen that way.
That's my theory. Take it or leave it.
Assuming that didn't happen or that Atzerodt's attorney wasn't somehow mistaken, then I agree with you the information would almost certainly have to come from Booth. If so, I can't help but feel that the note Booth left at the Kirkwood is somehow related to how he got the information the door would be unlocked.
I suppose it's possible Booth could've arranged for an employee at the Kirkwood to unlock Johnson's door and that Johnson was just napping or drinking alone.
If there was a woman hiding in the room, I still feel it's unlikely to have been Starr. I just think it would've come out if she had been with Johnson that night, especially after her suicide attempt.
Jerry, I would offer this slight variation on your theory that I think might be more plausible. In her statement Starr said she first came to Washington in December 1864 but had known Booth for about 3 years prior to the assassination. December was also a month where Booth's plotting really got into high gear. What if Booth convinced her to move to Washington and convinced her to work in a house of prostitution that that catered to high up people in an attempt to learn information about those people through the gossip passed among the girls of the house then passed along in bedroom banter between Booth and Starr. Booth could've learned that one of the other girls had Johnson as a client and that she liked to keep her client's doors unlocked for safety reasons.
I should point out that Starr's statement said that she hadn't seen Booth in 2 weeks, although that would also apply to the idea that she was in the room with Johnson.
Just to be clear, I'm not saying that I believe, disbelieve or am advocating for the above theory yet; I'm just putting it out as a response/thought experiment to yours.
I apologize for giving the wrong impression; I think the issue of whether Johnson had a woman in the room and whether that woman might have been a witting/unwitting part of Booth's conspiracy are two separate issues. If there was a woman in the room, I don't believe it was Eusebia Fitzgerald--who is the person I've been tracking--even though one apocryphal report from 1885 says that Johnson left the hotel with her (not that she was in his room).
As I mentioned earlier, I don't think Booth was a very complex planner. As was the case at Seward's, he might have just left it to Atzerodt to figure out how to get Johnson to open the door, locked or unlocked.
Jerry Kuntz
Warwick NY
RE: Andrew Johnson - Mistress - JMadonna - 11-16-2017 11:32 PM
(11-16-2017 07:26 PM)Steve Wrote: I should point out that Starr's statement said that she hadn't seen Booth in 2 weeks, although that would also apply to the idea that she was in the room with Johnson.
Just to be clear, I'm not saying that I believe, disbelieve or am advocating for the above theory yet; I'm just putting it out as a response/thought experiment to yours.
Steve,
I misspoke when I said 'this is my theory take it or leave it'. It's actually only a part of my theory. My goal was to try to rectify known historical events that have been ignored in the official narrative. In this case I linked two events; Ella's suicide attempt with how Booth knew that Johnson was in his room that evening, while the rest of Washington was celebrating.
It offers a better explanation for Turner’s actions that night rather than assuming the Victorian premise that she was a brokenhearted harlot atoning for her sins.
The notion that Booth merely assumed that Johnson would be alone in his room is simply not conceivable and suppressing any evidence of a connection between Booth and Johnson was imperative to preserve the function of government.
Before my theory, no one had ever questioned why Johnson was alone in his room. He was not a man who would rather sit alone than drink with friends celebrating the end of the war.
To some of Johnson’s early defenders, reading a book by gaslight seemed the only scenario that justified his being alone in his room that evening. So, even though that action was completely out of character for Andrew Johnson, to some of his early biographers that is what they speculated that he was probably doing during those critical hours.
Since sex trumps drinking alone, I reasoned that it was far more likely that Johnson was alone in his ten-foot square room because he was expecting a female visitor. I couldn't prove it but there was too much historical speculation to believe that he was monogamist. I also knew that Booth had smartly directed each assassin and victim. If he was going to decapitate the government, he could leave nothing to chance.
As for Ella, her statement to police consisted of only one paragraph and she doesn't appear to have been questioned at all. If the government authorities did not ask the assassin's girl friend any questions then either they were incompetent (they weren't) or the statement was heavily edited.
In her deposition she says she heard Booth speak of the president as ‘a good man’, if true she was probably the only one. Booth made a point of denouncing Lincoln in almost every city he played.
She also signed her deposition with three aliases, none of which used her surname Turner in order to disassociate her from the E.T. letter investigators found in Booth’s room. Did she do that on her own or was she directed to do so by government officials?
In the E.T. letter she referred to Booth as her ‘darling Baby’ which was not an address one would use for someone with whom one ‘was not on good terms with for over a year’. Conclusion? Her entire deposition was an obvious whitewash to keep whatever she knew quiet.
This is consistent with Stanton's behavior. Turner was not the only woman in Booth’s life whom Stanton helped keep secret. Officially, there were pictures of at least five women found on Booth’s body, but Stanton did not release their names to the public. The pictures were reported to be all actress friends of Booth but that was a lie. It wasn’t until many years later that one of the pictures was identified as Booth's fiancée, Lucy Hale, daughter of the Senator.
Hopefully, you can see I'm not just throwing spitballs at the wall. I did a great deal of research for my book before I published. You can believe it or not but I'm not interested in engaging in any "thought experiments".
RE: Andrew Johnson - Mistress - RJNorton - 11-17-2017 04:52 AM
(11-16-2017 09:29 PM)jparkuntz Wrote: even though one apocryphal report from 1885 says that Johnson left the hotel with her (not that she was in his room).
Jerry K., can you post any more information/details about this apocryphal report? As far as I know, Johnson only left his room once that evening. This was to make an extremely short visit to Lincoln's bedside at the Petersen House. Then he returned to the Kirkwood House and remained there. In fact Johnson was still there at the Kirkwood House when he was sworn in by Chase at 10:00 A.M. Saturday morning.