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+--- Thread: Thomas F. Harney (/thread-2272.html)
RE: Thomas F. Harney - SSlater - 06-30-2015 04:39 PM
(06-30-2015 07:20 AM)JMadonna Wrote:(06-20-2015 09:28 PM)SSlater Wrote:(06-15-2015 08:38 PM)JMadonna Wrote:(06-12-2015 09:40 PM)SSlater Wrote: JMADONNA - Yes, I've seen Jane Singer's book that includes Harney - Good Job, eh wat! but I can't find Harney in "Find a Grave". Where did he go after Elmira? (I'm guessing that he went to Canada with the Fenians.) I did find a Thomas F. Harney who married in Canada and returned to the US with a gang of kids - but I can't prove that he is "our" Harney. As for the "torpedo plot", I lay claim to finding Snyder. I brought him to the attention of James O. Hall and he finished the story for us. That's when I learned that you don't have anything - until you have it all. I really enjoy digging out the facts.
Did you ever find Snyder's statement?
No. I felt that the many descriptions of his statement and his efforts to be heard, were enough, for the time being. This wasn't a good idea because his recorded words could tell us more. However I was fully occupied with my other research. I can't find enough "to prove Harney, really existed." We are still accepting information on Harney that is always a little bit off. ( I made an error, I think, when I said that he never "Disserted. Now, I can show you where he did dessert and also where he didn't dessert.) Yipes!
Another misinformation, widely believed, is that Harney was carrying explosives. I now read that he had fuses and timers, "that he was delivering to Mosby" and expected to pick up the explosives Washington. Who was that? Any ideas? Harney was a slick one.
For example: Thomas Harney, who disserted from the U. S. Army, joined the Army in 1859, and disserted in Nov. 1861. How could he be living in New Orleans in 1860? Maybe that can be "explained", but I can't accept the info, until know. Oh Me! back to work.
I believe the Harney mission and Stringfellow missions were linked. Stringfellow's orders came straight from Davis and he was arrested with a map of Washington's defenses. I postulated that his failure to get the info to Harney led to his capture.
JMADONNA. Thanx for y0ur ideas on Harney. I don't know if Stringfellow and Harney were linked. It does seem logical, but I have never seen them mentioned in the same message, unless, Stringfellow was a member of the "Washington Action Team". I don't know who else was involved in that. I doubt that any of Booth's followers were in it. They were the Team that would provide the Powder. I've read that Harney's and Summers' cover story was to say that "they were delivering the Fuses, etc. Mosby. Nothing that I have read (and I still have a long way to go,) mentions "Fuses and Timers".
Did he really deliver them to Mosby? Did he have them at Burke Station? Did he dump them in the weeds, before capture? IMO, if he had the fuses etc. his arrest would not have been so casual.
I don't see how anything Stringfellow did influenced Harney's capture. I understand that Harney's arrest was an accidental meeting, of the two Cavalry Units. Harney's "Mission", if there was one, and the news of his capture, does not appear to have been wide spread NEWS. He was put in Old Capitol Prison, and then sent to Elmira, to be released on 5 July, WHEN THE PRISON CLOSED. (And taking the Oath.)
Please tell me more about your ideas on the possible connection of Harney and Stringfellow. I wrote a story on Stringfellows, a long time ago, I'll dig it out - to show Stringfellow's activity and the dates involved. Did you know that Stringfellow and Booth crossed the Potomac an the same night, with Thomas Jones help? JOHN
PS. am working with Jane Singer on this. She is a bit under the weather right now, Send her a GET WELL at janebsinger@verizon.net
(06-30-2015 04:39 PM)SSlater Wrote:PS Ripley wrote a book in 1907 (+/-) and covered this event. He may have kept Snyder's statement. Book was "The Capture and Occupation of Richmond, April 3, 1865". There are no records of the statement on file.. There are no Records of the Torpedo Bureau. JOHN(06-30-2015 07:20 AM)JMadonna Wrote:(06-20-2015 09:28 PM)SSlater Wrote:(06-15-2015 08:38 PM)JMadonna Wrote:(06-12-2015 09:40 PM)SSlater Wrote: JMADONNA - Yes, I've seen Jane Singer's book that includes Harney - Good Job, eh wat! but I can't find Harney in "Find a Grave". Where did he go after Elmira? (I'm guessing that he went to Canada with the Fenians.) I did find a Thomas F. Harney who married in Canada and returned to the US with a gang of kids - but I can't prove that he is "our" Harney. As for the "torpedo plot", I lay claim to finding Snyder. I brought him to the attention of James O. Hall and he finished the story for us. That's when I learned that you don't have anything - until you have it all. I really enjoy digging out the facts.
Did you ever find Snyder's statement?
No. I felt that the many descriptions of his statement and his efforts to be heard, were enough, for the time being. This wasn't a good idea because his recorded words could tell us more. However I was fully occupied with my other research. I can't find enough "to prove Harney, really existed." We are still accepting information on Harney that is always a little bit off. ( I made an error, I think, when I said that he never "Disserted. Now, I can show you where he did dessert and also where he didn't dessert.) Yipes!
Another misinformation, widely believed, is that Harney was carrying explosives. I now read that he had fuses and timers, "that he was delivering to Mosby" and expected to pick up the explosives Washington. Who was that? Any ideas? Harney was a slick one.
For example: Thomas Harney, who disserted from the U. S. Army, joined the Army in 1859, and disserted in Nov. 1861. How could he be living in New Orleans in 1860? Maybe that can be "explained", but I can't accept the info, until know. Oh Me! back to work.
I believe the Harney mission and Stringfellow missions were linked. Stringfellow's orders came straight from Davis and he was arrested with a map of Washington's defenses. I postulated that his failure to get the info to Harney led to his capture.
JMADONNA. Thanx for y0ur ideas on Harney. I don't know if Stringfellow and Harney were linked. It does seem logical, but I have never seen them mentioned in the same message, unless, Stringfellow was a member of the "Washington Action Team". I don't know who else was involved in that. I doubt that any of Booth's followers were in it. They were the Team that would provide the Powder. I've read that Harney's and Summers' cover story was to say that "they were delivering the Fuses, etc. Mosby. Nothing that I have read (and I still have a long way to go,) mentions "Fuses and Timers".
Did he really deliver them to Mosby? Did he have them at Burke Station? Did he dump them in the weeds, before capture? IMO, if he had the fuses etc. his arrest would not have been so casual.
I don't see how anything Stringfellow did influenced Harney's capture. I understand that Harney's arrest was an accidental meeting, of the two Cavalry Units. Harney's "Mission", if there was one, and the news of his capture, does not appear to have been wide spread NEWS. He was put in Old Capitol Prison, and then sent to Elmira, to be released on 5 July, WHEN THE PRISON CLOSED. (And taking the Oath.)
Please tell me more about your ideas on the possible connection of Harney and Stringfellow. I wrote a story on Stringfellows, a long time ago, I'll dig it out - to show Stringfellow's activity and the dates involved. Did you know that Stringfellow and Booth crossed the Potomac an the same night, with Thomas Jones help? JOHN
PS. am working with Jane Singer on this. She is a bit under the weather right now, Send her a GET WELL at janebsinger@verizon.net
RE: Thomas F. Harney - SSlater - 07-09-2015 04:44 PM
I will call this a "Status Report".
I have reviewed all that I can find on "Thomas F. Harney". I have searched beyond that, and as of now - I know that there was a "Thomas F. Harney". I know what he did , and what he didn't do, but I have no idea "who he was". I do not know where he came from, nor do I know where he went. He existed for 3 or 4 years - and that is all we know.
It appears that he did his job perfectly. He was a spook, and has remained a spook.
There are probably 50,000 various listings for "Thomas Harney", some of these are duplicates, but all the rest can be excluded by information that proves that he is not "our" Thomas Harney.
Was he the Thomas Harney, living in New Orleans, as shown in the 1860 Census? NO!, not if he is the same Thomas Harney that enlisted in the U. S. Army - Missouri Home Guard in 1859 and stayed with them until 1 Nov. 1861. Who I think is "our" Thomas F. Harney.
Did he teach school in Harrisonville, MO. I don't know - there is no record. Was he born in Blair Co, PA,? - he says he was. No! he wasn't. Blair Co. did not exist at the time of his birth. Was he married? He said - NO. Do you believe him ?
Was he on a mission to blow up the White House? PROVE IT, I can't.
Does anyone have anything POSITIVE on "our" Thomas Harney?
PS. Jane Singer gets a copy of everything I have on Harney.
RE: Thomas F. Harney - RJNorton - 07-10-2015 04:32 AM
(06-20-2015 09:28 PM)SSlater Wrote: I can't find enough "to prove Harney, really existed." We are still accepting information on Harney that is always a little bit off.
(07-09-2015 04:44 PM)SSlater Wrote: Was he on a mission to blow up the White House? PROVE IT, I can't.
Is there any mention of Harney or the Harney mission in the assassination literature prior to Come Retribution? If so, I would be interested in reading what is written. Thanks.
RE: Thomas F. Harney - SSlater - 07-10-2015 02:33 PM
RJ. Many years ago - at least in the 80's, I was reading an article on another subject, in the CIVIL WAR TIMES ILLUSTRARED, and the author impressed me, so I looked at his "bio" elsewhere in the book. In this obscure section was the story about "Snyder - Ripley - and Harney". I brought it to the attention of James O. Hall, and he ran with it. I would have to say- that was the beginning of "modern" research on Snyder-Ripley- Harney. Later, Jane Singer picked up on it - you know her contribution. Other on those two, I don't know of any others.
Everything I find is so Fuzzy-Contradictory- Incomplete and Unbelievable, that I am considering looking for Harney - under another name.
The first story, of the mission, was in a book written by Ripley, about 1904 titled "The Capture and Occupation of Richmond - 1865". I have posted that info elsewhere in this Forum - in case I got mixed up on that Title.
The most important thing I can add, will be to research the "Fenian" records. (That was an Irish Brotherhood, who wanted to invade Canada, about 1865 - Harney may have gone with them.) Those Records are at the Library at The Catholic University of America, Washington, D.C. (See Google)
I have been communicating with Ms Singer, but she is unable to participate just now. I have promises that she will jump in soonest, and share her knowledge.
(07-10-2015 02:33 PM)SSlater Wrote: RJ. Many years ago - at least in the 80's, I was reading an article on another subject, in the CIVIL WAR TIMES ILLUSTRARED, and the author impressed me, so I looked at his "bio" elsewhere in the book. In this obscure section was the story about "Snyder - Ripley - and Harney". I brought it to the attention of James O. Hall, and he ran with it. I would have to say- that was the beginning of "modern" research on Snyder-Ripley- Harney. Later, Jane Singer picked up on it - you know her contribution. Other on those two, I don't know of any others.I have all those CWT Illustrated mags - in storage. Do you need to know " a date"?
Everything I find is so Fuzzy-Contradictory- Incomplete and Unbelievable, that I am considering looking for Harney - under another name.
The first story, of the mission, was in a book written by Ripley, about 1904 titled "The Capture and Occupation of Richmond - 1865". I have posted that info elsewhere in this Forum - in case I got mixed up on that Title.
The most important thing I can add, will be to research the "Fenian" records. (That was an Irish Brotherhood, who wanted to invade Canada, about 1865 - Harney may have gone with them.) Those Records are at the Library at The Catholic University of America, Washington, D.C. (See Google)
I have been communicating with Ms Singer, but she is unable to participate just now. I have promises that she will jump in soonest, and share her knowledge.
RE: Thomas F. Harney - RJNorton - 07-10-2015 02:40 PM
John, many thanks. No, I do not need a date - I was just curious as I had never heard of him prior to Come Retribution. Thanks again, John.
RE: Thomas F. Harney - SSlater - 07-10-2015 04:09 PM
Me again. I can't stop thinking about Harney.
When Harney was captured, the skirmish was reported in a local paper, but there is no mention of the capture of Harney. From that I can say - the North didn't know that Harney was a "Bomber".
When Harney was put in Old Capitol Prison, there is no mention of a "Bomber" in their midst. When Harney was moved to Elmira -again no mention of a "Bomber". On July 5, 1865, when Elmira was closed, Harney was released.
I now believe that "Harney as a "Bomber", was not uncovered until Ripley wrote his book in 1905 +/-. Harney spent less than 3 months in jail. THEY DIDN"T KNOW WHO THEY HAD.
If Ripley read the Snyder Statement to Lincoln, and Lincoln's reaction was "I can't think of anyone who would hurt me" and refused additional protection. (until later in April when Conrad was trying to abduct him - the Cavalry Troop.) That statement , by Snyder, was put in the bottom drawer - along with the other threats -that were laughed at, and no one took any more interest.
How much of what Ripley said, to Lincoln, can be proved? (Snyder was not allowed in the room with Lincoln. Later,Ripley might have "improved" on the Statement, when he wrote his book - to make it sell better.
Now we are at the point where we can say that Harney DIDN"T do it, or, at least, nobody cared.
RE: Thomas F. Harney - SSlater - 07-12-2015 04:05 PM
In an effort to find "Snyder's" full name- I found B.G. Edward H. Ripley's book . (but I didn't find Snyder first name- Dagnabit!) see:
https://book.google.com?books?id=wUBLAAAAY. Skip down to pg 494 for "President Lincoln's Visit" and there it is in detail.
The rest of the book shows a lot about Ripley. He was a "collector", which makes me believe that he kept Snyder's statement. The book has the full statement, written 40 years later.
Ripley is from Vermont - maybe a Library up there has his papers. I think he 's from Battleboro, VT. ( He kept the key to Libby Prison, after he released the Federal Prisoners.) Tell me what you find, Plez!
RE: Thomas F. Harney - SSlater - 07-12-2015 05:56 PM
This will be my last post on Harney, (Glory Be!) until I find where he came from and where did he go?
Let's take a look at what we know and how some of it is questionable.
ITEM 1. Snyder made reference to "A Party" that was sent from the Torpedo Bureau, headed by, or Under, Harney. WRONG. Harney left alone. (Webster says "party" means a person or a group.)
Thus when Harney reached Gordonsville, VA, Maj. Boyle provided HIM with a horse, and later provided HIM with a guide.
ITEM 2. Lincoln listened to Snyder's statement and was not the least bit concerned. He had over 1000 threats to his life and had a separate file for them. This threat was filed with them accordingly. There was no "All Points Bulletin" sent out, to find Harney. Thus, when Harney was captured, there were no Orders to treat Harney any differently than any "Johnny Reb". He went to Old Capitol, then to Elmira, and finally released. (Where did he Go? )
ITEM 3. Who Captured Harney? The first attack came from Col. Albright and the 202nd Penna. Vol. During the battle, Harney and three others escaped and took off, all according to the plans. Eventually, Harney and friends were found -accidentally- by the 8th Il Cav. under Col. (B. Gen) Gamble.) I don't know the Company designation. Now they have Harney in Irons, and there are no Orders to treat him differently. This explains why he was treated so casually , to the surprise of some readers on this Forum.
ITEM 4. How come Thomas F. Summers was so available to be a guide? Summers had been with Leige White's "Comanches", but they were disbanded over a year earlier, when the Reb. Congress withdrew the Partisan Ranger Act and directed him not to join another Ranger Group. I guess Maj. Boyle had him (and maybe more) "in his back pocket", in case he was needed. Mosby's was stretched thin - Lt. Col Chapman had three or four Companies off in the Northern Neck, at this time. Mosby "incorporated" another Ranger Group, into his Command to form Co. H. (Against Orders). The story that he "Handpicked" his own Companies, to form Co., H - is not TRUE.
That's enough! See-ya.
RE: Thomas F. Harney - Gene C - 07-12-2015 08:46 PM
(07-09-2015 04:44 PM)SSlater Wrote: Was he the Thomas Harney, living in New Orleans, as shown in the 1860 Census? NO!, not if he is the same Thomas Harney that enlisted in the U. S. Army - Missouri Home Guard in 1859 and stayed with them until 1 Nov. 1861. Who I think is "our" Thomas F. Harney.
Did he teach school in Harrisonville, MO. I don't know - there is no record.
Is your man any relation to a General William S Harney who "was refusing to allow Union volunteer regiments to receive arms or even to occupy the arsenal grounds", in April 1861 at St. Louis?
(The Secret War for the Union" by Edwin Fishel, page 19.)
RE: Thomas F. Harney - SSlater - 07-12-2015 10:31 PM
Since I know so little about Thomas F. Harney, I can not trace his Ancestry. It is believed that Thomas was born in Ireland, circa. 1835, totally unconfirmed, and William S. was born Tenn. 1800. There could be a relationship, but it would be "A distant Relationship". I will keep this in mind as I research.
RE: Thomas F. Harney - RJNorton - 07-13-2015 04:10 AM
My main interest in Harney is related to the assassination. What did John Wilkes Booth know (about his capture), when did he know it (if he did), and how did he find out (if he did)? Did Harney's capture convince Booth to carry out the assassination because Harney had been taken out? Or was it Lincoln's April 11th speech (and Harney's capture had nothing to do with Booth's thinking)? Some Lincoln assassination books do not even mention Harney.
RE: Thomas F. Harney - SSlater - 07-13-2015 08:30 PM
RJN. I agree with your priorities. The news of Harney's arrest was overlooked by everybody, at that time, because no one knew about about his mission. The Battle and some arrests were put into the Newspapers the next day (April 11+/-), but nothing on Harney. He was put in Old Capitol April 12 +/-. If his arrest was announced ,in some way, I can't find a record of it. Note how close these dates are to the 14th.
It is possible, that the "Washington Action Group", who were holding the explosives, were the first to notice that Harney is VERY LATE, and checked with their sources. (I don't see Booth in the Group.) and that got the word around about the failure.
Based on this, and knowing that Booth had already called his team to Washington, Booth was ready to act. This failure may have been the trigger that made Booth MOVE.
I'd like to change your last sentence, from "Some Lincoln Books", to "Most Lincoln Books", don't mention Harney. I doubt that there has ever been a Group, like this Symposium, who spent as much time really digging deep into the Assassination, as they are. As said elsewhere, no on knew about Harney's mission, until 1907, and even then there were no details. Even now, I can't find out exactly WHO HARNEY WAS. (But I'm searching. There is NOTHING on him, anywhere.)
RE: Thomas F. Harney - RJNorton - 07-14-2015 04:06 AM
(07-13-2015 08:30 PM)SSlater Wrote: I'd like to change your last sentence, from "Some Lincoln Books", to "Most Lincoln Books", don't mention Harney. anywhere.)
John, you are definitely correct. I should have said it that way.
John Fazio talks about Harney in his book, and so does Ed Steers in Blood on the Moon. Ed writes, "While news of the skirmish appeared in the Washington Daily Morning Chronicle on April 11, Harney's capture and imprisonment in the Old Capitol Prison was not mentioned. Still, Booth could have found out about the failure of Harney's operation through any number of sources in the city. The fall of Richmond and Lee's surrender may well have caused Booth to conclude that capturing Lincoln no longer had a strategic purpose." (The thinking expressed by Dr. Steers is also one of the reasons why I feel that Mary Surratt could have figured out kidnapping was no longer Booth's plan.)
RE: Thomas F. Harney - HerbS - 07-14-2015 06:48 AM
I agree with your opinions of Booth and Mary Surratt-100%!
RE: Thomas F. Harney - SSlater - 07-14-2015 08:56 PM
Snyder's statement does not mention Harney. Who solved the riddle, and found out it was Harney? Then, who found him in Northern VA, with Mosby? Harney's name is shown in Mosby's roster of Co. H. etc. Who tied all this together. I'm Hoping that it was someone we know, because he (or she) may have more on him.