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+--- Forum: Assassination (/forum-5.html)
+--- Thread: JWB and God (/thread-2038.html)
RE: JWB and God - Jim Garrett - 11-19-2014 06:56 PM
Over the years, religion has become more casual and lost some of its majesty. Nothing can replace the awe and wonder of an old fashion Episcopal high holy service.
RE: JWB and God - L Verge - 11-19-2014 07:34 PM
(11-19-2014 06:56 PM)Jim Garrett Wrote: Over the years, religion has become more casual and lost some of its majesty. Nothing can replace the awe and wonder of an old fashion Episcopal high holy service.
I certainly agree with that! When they snatched the 1928 Book of Common Prayer out from under us and replaced that wonderful text with the new version, IMO they desecrated part of the English language - along with the religious beauty of it. I never knew what faith Mr. Hall was, but he once told me that he considered the language in that prayer book to be some of the most beautiful he had ever seen.
I earlier mentioned about being our church's organist. At Christmas, we usually had the crucifer, choir, acolytes, and priest process down the aisle from the back of the church at the beginning of the service. The priest would be swinging the bowl of incense and would stop in front of the creche for a special blessing before proceeding into the chancel.
Unfortunately for me, the creche was positioned to one side of the aisle in front of the organ. I had to make sure that the processional hymn was one I knew by heart because the incense would make my eyes water and I would not be able to read the music for the next five minutes! But I loved every moment of the dignity.
RE: JWB and God - LincolnToddFan - 11-24-2014 10:36 PM
(11-18-2014 09:02 PM)Linda Anderson Wrote:(11-18-2014 07:50 PM)L Verge Wrote:(11-18-2014 06:36 PM)Linda Anderson Wrote:(11-18-2014 06:09 PM)L Verge Wrote: His hatred and actions were directed at people that he thought had changed his beloved country for the worst. In doing so, he "usurped" God's power. God is the final judge -- of course, we don't know what happened to Mr. Lincoln upon reaching the pearly gates...
Booth wrote in his diary about the assassination, "This last was not a wrong, unless God deems it so, and it's with Him to damn or bless me," which shows that he was preparing for death. Powell, Mary Surratt, Herold and Atzerodt also had time to prepare to meet their Maker before their executions.
Lincoln was not afforded that time.
I was raised to believe that one's actions in LIFE are what prepares one for the everlasting. And before some jump at me, I am not trying to imply that Mr. Lincoln did not practice a godly life. I'm sure that he did -- much more so than many of our nation's presidents.
I just never quite understand how anyone can live 10 to 100+ years doing whatever they darn well feel like doing and then be able to turn things around to suit God in a matter of days or months. Like Booth, I am an Episcopalian (born and raised), played the church organ for 26 years, and obediently said the General Confession every Sunday before Communion. That said, I still have problems with a mortal priest turning around and granting me absolution. I'm waiting on God to do that.
Sorry, I don't want to be a preacher...
All I can speak to is the Catholic Church which says, "Only God forgives sins.39 Since he is the Son of God, Jesus says of himself, "The Son of man has authority on earth to forgive sins" and exercises this divine power: "Your sins are forgiven."40 Further, by virtue of his divine authority he gives this power to men to exercise in his name.41"
Absolution means that one is forgiven his or her sins but there are still the consequences of the sins that must be atoned for through penance.
http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p2s2c2a4.htm
I completely understand why the Sacrament of Penance is a stumbling block for many outside the Catholic Church. But for me, it's one of the most reassuring and beautiful parts of our faith. (I suppose it helps that my long time confessor is one of the wisest, holiest men I've ever known.) I've tried to live as good a life as I can, but when my time comes I hope I do at least have some time to prepare-unlike poor Mr. Lincoln.
For a believing Catholic an unprepared death is traditionally one of the worst fates that can ever befall a soul. Shakespeare's Prince Hamlet's chief outrage against his father's killer was that the victim had not been "shriven" of his sins before his death.
Anyway, why are some historians convinced of JWB's Catholicism?
RE: JWB and God - L Verge - 11-25-2014 10:02 AM
(11-24-2014 10:36 PM)LincolnToddFan Wrote:(11-18-2014 09:02 PM)Linda Anderson Wrote:(11-18-2014 07:50 PM)L Verge Wrote:(11-18-2014 06:36 PM)Linda Anderson Wrote:(11-18-2014 06:09 PM)L Verge Wrote: His hatred and actions were directed at people that he thought had changed his beloved country for the worst. In doing so, he "usurped" God's power. God is the final judge -- of course, we don't know what happened to Mr. Lincoln upon reaching the pearly gates...
Booth wrote in his diary about the assassination, "This last was not a wrong, unless God deems it so, and it's with Him to damn or bless me," which shows that he was preparing for death. Powell, Mary Surratt, Herold and Atzerodt also had time to prepare to meet their Maker before their executions.
Lincoln was not afforded that time.
I was raised to believe that one's actions in LIFE are what prepares one for the everlasting. And before some jump at me, I am not trying to imply that Mr. Lincoln did not practice a godly life. I'm sure that he did -- much more so than many of our nation's presidents.
I just never quite understand how anyone can live 10 to 100+ years doing whatever they darn well feel like doing and then be able to turn things around to suit God in a matter of days or months. Like Booth, I am an Episcopalian (born and raised), played the church organ for 26 years, and obediently said the General Confession every Sunday before Communion. That said, I still have problems with a mortal priest turning around and granting me absolution. I'm waiting on God to do that.
Sorry, I don't want to be a preacher...
All I can speak to is the Catholic Church which says, "Only God forgives sins.39 Since he is the Son of God, Jesus says of himself, "The Son of man has authority on earth to forgive sins" and exercises this divine power: "Your sins are forgiven."40 Further, by virtue of his divine authority he gives this power to men to exercise in his name.41"
Absolution means that one is forgiven his or her sins but there are still the consequences of the sins that must be atoned for through penance.
http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p2s2c2a4.htm
I completely understand why the Sacrament of Penance is a stumbling block for many outside the Catholic Church. But for me, it's one of the most reassuring and beautiful parts of our faith. (I suppose it helps that my long time confessor is one of the wisest, holiest men I've ever known.) I've tried to live as good a life as I can, but when my time comes I hope I do at least have some time to prepare-unlike poor Mr. Lincoln.
For a believing Catholic an unprepared death is traditionally one of the worst fates that a ever befall a soul. Shakespeare's Prince Hamlet's chief outrage against his father's killer was that the victim had not been "shriven" of his sins before his death.
Anyway, why are some historians convinced of JWB's Catholicism?
"Anyway, why are some historians convinced of JWB's Catholicism? "
So far as I can tell, they have jumped on one line that Asia supposedly wrote about JWB telling her that he had converted to Catholicism. Does anyone else know a deeper reason?
RE: JWB and God - BettyO - 11-25-2014 10:06 AM
Quote:So far as I can tell, they have jumped on one line that Asia supposedly wrote about JWB telling her that he had converted to Catholicism. Does anyone else know a deeper reason?
Would Terry Alford know? If anyone does, he should.....
RE: JWB and God - L Verge - 11-25-2014 10:09 AM
(11-25-2014 10:06 AM)BettyO Wrote:Quote:So far as I can tell, they have jumped on one line that Asia supposedly wrote about JWB telling her that he had converted to Catholicism. Does anyone else know a deeper reason?
Would Terry Alford know? If anyone does, he should.....
I'll ask him, but he's playing his cards close to his chest until Fortune's Fool is released.
RE: JWB and God - Linda Anderson - 11-25-2014 10:20 AM
One of my favorite quotes from Henry David Thoreau is his response when his aunt asked him on his deathbed if he was prepared to make his peace with God. He replied, "I do not know we have ever quarreled, Aunt."
RE: JWB and God - L Verge - 11-25-2014 01:10 PM
I got an immediate response from Terry, and the answer is NO, he did not find any evidence to indicate that JWB converted from the Episcopal to the Catholic faith, despite what Asia wrote about him preferring the Catholic faith. I didn't realize that Asia converted to Catholicism after attending a school run by nuns -- shades of Mary Surratt.
Interesting tidbit that he shared: At the time of Junius The Elder's death, Mrs. Booth was visited by her next door neighbors, who were Methodist and who felt obliged to suggest that her husband was paying for his sins on earth and that she would do well to teach her children better beliefs. This impelled Mary Ann to send John and Joe back to St. Timothy's for baptism (see Jim's previous post).
There are some references to John wearing a small, religious medal (maybe the Agnus Dei medal) at the time of his death. There is no indication where it came from or its significance to him. However, as an Episcopalian, I can tell you that I once had an Agnus Dei medal given to me at the time of confirmation. I have also seen reference (maybe in An American Tragedy) to John having donated to a project that the Surratt ladies were involved with at church. Perhaps the medal was a token of appreciation.
Terry does stress that his research shows Booth attending a variety of Christian churches and would probably be classified as a "free thinker," who was not tied down to any one practice. He believed in God, but a god who allowed man to reason with his own styles of how life should be lived.
May I just say that the one page of text that Terry sent me in reference to this made me want to reach through the computer screen and seize the entire manuscript and begin reading at once! If this is a good example of his research, we may finally get a greater insight into what type of person Booth was -- far beyond the manipulative, insane character that history and historians (and the Civil War) have assessed him as.
RE: JWB and God - Jim Garrett - 11-25-2014 08:16 PM
Well said Laurie. Many are waiting anxiously for Terry's release.
RE: JWB and God - Lincoln Wonk - 11-25-2014 08:44 PM
Asia Clarke told a great story about the Booth family and religion. She said a religious woman who lived nearby showed up at the Booth home one day wanting to convert the heathen Booth children. Mary Ann Booth was furious. She was an Episcopalian, and her children were raised in her faith as well as their father's various beliefs and they were sent to St. Timothy's to prepare for Confirmation.
RE: JWB and God - Eva Elisabeth - 11-26-2014 03:39 AM
In 1865, JWB frequently met with spiritualist Charles J. Colchester - but not for the reason Mary met the "lord", I guess?
RE: JWB and God - L Verge - 11-26-2014 11:45 AM
(11-25-2014 08:44 PM)Lincoln Wonk Wrote: Asia Clarke told a great story about the Booth family and religion. She said a religious woman who lived nearby showed up at the Booth home one day wanting to convert the heathen Booth children. Mary Ann Booth was furious. She was an Episcopalian, and her children were raised in her faith as well as their father's various beliefs and they were sent to St. Timothy's to prepare for Confirmation.
This is the same story as what Terry related. The visitors were neighbors Elisha and Ann Browne, upstanding members of the Pillars of Light Methodist Church, who also tried to leave some missionary tracts with Mrs. Booth.
JWB later expressed his disdain for what he termed "Bible thumpers," referring to those who slammed their fists on the Bible or threw the Book itself down on the pulpit to prove their points.
RE: JWB and God - LincolnToddFan - 11-26-2014 12:33 PM
[JWB later expressed his disdain for what he termed "Bible thumpers," referring to those who slammed their fists on the Bible or threw the Book itself down on the pulpit to prove their points]// quote
My God...I have something in common with John Wilkes Booth!!??
RE: JWB and God - Eva Elisabeth - 11-29-2014 06:41 AM
(11-25-2014 01:10 PM)L Verge Wrote: I got an immediate response from Terry, and the answer is NO, he did not find any evidence to indicate that JWB converted from the Episcopal to the Catholic faith, despite what Asia wrote about him preferring the Catholic faith.Asa wrote to her friend Jean Anderson on May 22, 1865:
"I am still more surprised to learn that all engaged in the plot are Roman Catholics. Wilkes was of the faith professedly, and I was glad that he had fixed his faith on one religion, for he always was of a pious mind."
Why did she write this? The only I know of despite Mary Surratt and son is Ned Spangler, but allegedly not until short before his death, thus not in 1865. And Atzerodt came from Thuringia, if anything I would think he was a Lutheran.
RE: JWB and God - BettyO - 11-29-2014 07:35 AM
Atzerodt was a Lutheran; Herold an Episcopalian; Powell a Baptist and son of a Baptist minister. None of the executed other than Mrs. Surratt were Catholic; I think that both O'Laughlen and Arnold were also Episcopalian as well. Dr. Mudd and Spangler were Catholic......