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+--- Thread: Who Can You Believe (/thread-1832.html)
RE: Who Can You Believe - LincolnToddFan - 07-29-2014 11:31 PM
Thanks Linda....I am shocked to learn that Fred lived to be so old...he survived his entire family despite his terrible injuries!
RE: Who Can You Believe - Eva Elisabeth - 07-30-2014 08:18 AM
(07-29-2014 04:07 PM)Houmes Wrote:Dr. Houmes - may I kindly ask for your comment on the following?(07-29-2014 02:26 AM)LincolnToddFan Wrote: Thanks Linda-
It's a miracle Fred survived that night. A small part of his brain was exposed from the force of the pistol breaking open his skull. He was comatose for several days afterward, and at least one newspaper reported that he had died.
After he recovered he wore a cap for the rest of his life.
I've read this line ("...a small part of his brain was exposed...") before and highly doubt--in an era where there were no antibiotics or knowledge of antiseptic treatment--that his brain was exposed. Back then, as a rule, it would have been a death sentence from meningitis. It's much more likely that they saw his skull exposed. Today, it's common to see the skull if a laceration is deep enough.
Sure it would have been a miracle to survive such in those days (but that goes for his father's injuries, too), but such miracles did happen on the other hand. Why not here? In post #13, Linda quotes from Fanny's diary: " At present the PULSING of the brain is visible" (maybe an epidural artery?).
Also - from my humble understanding, if the skull was broken (about which, if I understand correctly, there's no doubt), and as it was an open wound, the meninges, at least the dura mater, would have been connected and thus "exposed" to the "outside environment" and thus way would anyway have been given for germs etc. to enter and cause meningitis, wouldn't it?
Not to forget as for the risk of infection that despite lacking aseptic measures, brain surgery and trepanning is AFAIK the oldest kind of surgery and had "successfully" (i.e. the patient at least survived) been practiced centuries ago:
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trepanning
"Out of eight skulls with trepanations from the 6th to 8th centuries found in southwestern Germany, seven skulls show clear evidence of healing and survival after trepanation suggesting that the survival rate of the operations was high and the infection rate was low."
RE: Who Can You Believe - Linda Anderson - 07-30-2014 09:58 AM
This is Dr. Verdi's account of Fred's injuries.
"The wounds of Frederick excited the greatest solicitude. The brain was exposed in both places; in the anterior one fully a square inch of the membranes of the brain was exposed to view. A lacerated vessel on the interior surface of the cranium would from time to time bleed so profusely as to put his life in imminent jeopardy, and yet it could not be reached for a ligature. We were constantly kept in fearful apprehension of these hemorrhages."
"The Assassination of the Sewards" - "The Republic" - Vol I, from March to December 1873, p. 296.
http://books.google.com/books?id=1RQ6AQAAIAAJ&pg=PA296&lpg=PA296&dq=frederick+seward+brain+exposed&source=bl&ots=8heZud7yRV&sig=7U-0LQicgCcta6vSn7XxQKXh4Xg&hl=en&sa=X&ei=2ArZU7bxG8uOyASK_4GQAg&ved=0CB0Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=frederick%20seward%20brain%20exposed&f=false
Here is an earlier account from Dr. Verdi of Fred and Gus's injuries.
"...after which I was informed that FREDERICK SEWARD was in an adjacent room, also injured. I hastily went to him and found him lying on a lounge, with blood streaming over his face. He had been wounded in several places, viz., on the left parietal bone, just about the "parietal eminence;" on the left side of the frontal bone, just about the line of intersection with the parietal; with two other light wounds in that neighborhood. The injury on the parietal eminence had evidently crushed the bone, as osseous spiculae were taken out; but it appeared, however, that the internal table, even if fractured, was not depressed. He was not insensible, but could not articulate. In about an hour, however, after his wounds were dressed, he fell into a slumber from which, for sixty hours, he could not be aroused. I had scarcely finished applying ice to arrest the hemorrhage, when I was told to look at Mr. AUG. SEWARD. I became truly amazed -- "What!" said I, "is there another one wounded?" His injuries, however, were comparatively light -- one was from a blow with the butt-end of a pistol, on the upper and middle part of the forehead; the other a cut over the metacarpal bone of the thumb of his right hand."
New York Times - THE ASSAULT UPON MR. SEWARD.; Interesting Details--Letter From Dr. Verdi, Mr. Seward's Family Physician.
T. S. Verdi
Published: May 18, 1865
http://www.nytimes.com/1865/05/18/news/assault-upon-mr-seward-interesting-details-letter-dr-verdi-mr-seward-s-family.html
RE: Who Can You Believe - L Verge - 07-30-2014 12:34 PM
These are wonderful descriptions - if one can call such things wonderful! Thanks for posting these, Linda.
One thing does not seem to support the idea that that brain was exposed, however, when he talks about "the internal table, even if fractured, was not depressed." I also did not see mention of a pulsating in the brain.
RE: Who Can You Believe - LincolnToddFan - 07-30-2014 12:37 PM
Once again, it's a miracle that Fred did not die of his injuries. I am almost speechless with horror reading Dr. Verdi's description. I am curious...did Fred suffer any short term memory loss from that night? Did he remember any of it? He was not well enough to testify at the conspiracy trial, and I don't recall reading any statement he made about his near fatal encounter with Paine on the staircase that night.
Thank you, Linda!
RE: Who Can You Believe - Linda Anderson - 07-30-2014 01:06 PM
Fred did remember it after a bit, Toia. Naturally he was a little bit confused when he woke up. "He thought that only one night had passed, since he knew not what had happened to him, and his mind took up matters just where it had left them". Fred and Seward gave an interview to the London Spectator later that year. The article is titled "The Sensation of Being Murdered."
http://beck.library.emory.edu/iln/browse.php?id=iln47.1344.005
Fred also testified in the John Surratt trial in 1867 as did Anna. Fred gave some interviews throughout the remainder of his life about that terrible night.
RE: Who Can You Believe - BettyO - 07-30-2014 01:21 PM
Quote:Betty, have you ever found the source for Powell saying that Fanny stopped him from killing Seward or that he could not strike "that young girl watching there by her father?"
Linda - I found the reference you were looking for: It's from Fanny's Orbit - "Death of Miss Fanny Seward", Baltimore Sun, October 31, 1866.
This has turned into a fascinating discussion!
RE: Who Can You Believe - Linda Anderson - 07-30-2014 03:17 PM
(07-30-2014 01:21 PM)BettyO Wrote:Quote:Betty, have you ever found the source for Powell saying that Fanny stopped him from killing Seward or that he could not strike "that young girl watching there by her father?"
Linda - I found the reference you were looking for: It's from Fanny's Orbit - "Death of Miss Fanny Seward", Baltimore Sun, October 31, 1866.
This has turned into a fascinating discussion!
Thanks, Betty!
RE: Who Can You Believe - LincolnToddFan - 07-30-2014 03:22 PM
(07-30-2014 01:06 PM)Linda Anderson Wrote: Fred did remember it after a bit, Toia. Naturally he was a little bit confused when he woke up. "He thought that only one night had passed, since he knew not what had happened to him, and his mind took up matters just where it had left them". Fred and Seward gave an interview to the London Spectator later that year. The article is titled "The Sensation of Being Murdered."
http://beck.library.emory.edu/iln/browse.php?id=iln47.1344.005
Fred also testified in the John Surratt trial in 1867 as did Anna. Fred gave some interviews throughout the remainder of his life about that terrible night.
Wow. I don't know how you find this stuff Linda, thanks again.
Do you know what makes me crazy?? That the Seward home on Lafayette Square where it all took place was eventually demolished. Why, why, why are we Americans so careless about our historical places...the Seward home, like Ford's Theater and the Peterson House, should have been on an historical protected site list!
RE: Who Can You Believe - L Verge - 07-30-2014 03:27 PM
I definitely agree about saving the Seward house, especially because it had rich history dating before the Sewards moved in. Philip Barton Key's murder, the Taneys living there, its history as the Old Club or Clubhouse.
RE: Who Can You Believe - Linda Anderson - 07-30-2014 04:30 PM
(07-30-2014 03:27 PM)L Verge Wrote: I definitely agree about saving the Seward house, especially because it had rich history dating before the Sewards moved in. Philip Barton Key's murder, the Taneys living there, its history as the Old Club or Clubhouse.
It's unbelievable that the government didn't step in to save such an historic building. It had a terrible reputation in Washington due to the violent acts that took place in and around it so it was hard for the owner to rent. The government leased it for the Office of the Commissary General for a number of years. Secretary of State James Blaine bought it after the Commissary General left for new quarters. He died in 1893 and his widow decided to lease the property to a Chicago syndicate who razed it to build the Lafayette Opera House.
RE: Who Can You Believe - BettyO - 07-30-2014 04:43 PM
I most certainly concur that this wonderful, historic old building should have survived. It's a shame that it was torn down; irregardless of it's "dark and seemingly haunted history"..... it sure would be an attraction nowadays!
RE: Who Can You Believe - L Verge - 07-30-2014 06:51 PM
If you stop and think about it, structures in D.C. were pretty much under control of Congress until the mid-20th century. Most historic preservation in the U.S. was done on the local or state level starting after the Civil War. The Ladies of Mount Vernon had saved that wonderful place right before the war, and then came the Williamsburg project under the Rockefellers in the early-1900s. FDR's creation of the WPA put out-of-work architects busy photographing and documenting Historic American Buildings surveys.
However, I think we can give a lot of credit to Jackie Kennedy for putting a national spin on recognizing the value of historical preservation. Her efforts with the White House and other interests raised awareness, and by 1966 Congress had passed the National Historic Preservation Act that has helped so many. They even tagged part of the National Transportation Act of the same year to protect sites that could be destroyed by the new infrastructure laws enacted under Eisenhower.
I have been told that JFK remarked during his inaugural parade down Pennsylvania Avenue that the old street was in deplorable shape and that the neighborhood needed a facelift. It took awhile, but the city made it work. Too bad that someone did not have the foresight to save the Old Clubhouse.
RE: Who Can You Believe - LincolnToddFan - 07-31-2014 12:23 AM
During Mrs. Kennedy's time in the WH, there were some historic row houses on Lafayette Square that predated the Civil War and were due for demolition. The powers that be had decided to replace them with some office buildings.
Jackie fought like crazy to protect those historic row houses. She got architect John Carl Warnecke to draw up plans that would allow the developers to have their office buildings without destroying those homes.
She won.
RE: Who Can You Believe - L Verge - 07-31-2014 08:21 AM
The Stephen Decatur House on the Square is a good example of one that was saved. There are others where the facades were at least saved, but office complexes were incorporated behind those facades. The Dolley Madison House is one of these. This has been a useful technique in at least D.C. - saving the historic facade, but doing adaptive use with the rest of the building.
Most historic preservation covenants protect the exterior, but allow owners to make necessary upgrades to the interior. Homes and buildings of great historical significance, of course, are preserved as close to the original as possible. The big issue today (as our country seems to have lost interest in its history) is determining what the true historical value is of some "old buildings." We have seen that a lot in our home county here. After the tobacco buy-outs, large farms went up for sale and developers grabbed them. Many had homes dating to the post-Civil War era as well as 19th-century and early-20th century barns and outbuildings. They took up space that McMansions could be built on, so down they went. In most cases, those buildings had no significant historical value. The county has saved some of the old tobacco barns and stripping sheds in order to maintain a sense of the historic economy that controlled our area for nearly 300 years. The point is - not every old building is historic. In the case of the Old Clubhouse, however, it definitely should have been preserved for its historic value.