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+--- Thread: One more post, on one broken leg. (/thread-1145.html)
RE: One more post, on one broken leg. - Gene C - 09-12-2013 06:27 PM
(09-12-2013 06:00 PM)Troy Cowan Wrote: Going along with this idea, Gene says that the dead man at the Garrett's house had on Booth's clothes. Again, I have never heard anyone say this until today. The dead man on the porch had on Confederate gray trousers and Confederate yellow brogans. He (Boyd) did have many items that belonged to Booth in his possession. Booth was transported from the Lucas farm to the Rappahannock River crossing lying down in a wagon with an improvised false bottom. During the trip many items were lost from Booth's clothing. Later, Boyd was asked to retrieve them and that is why they were in his possession.
I have never heard anyone say this until today. Again, what's your source?
Yellow? brogans - (above the ankle high shoes)
(09-12-2013 06:00 PM)Troy Cowan Wrote: Dave, gong back to your original question. At the porch, when Boyd died, Edward Doherty made the switch.
(09-12-2013 09:01 AM)Gene C Wrote: And Davey never tells anyone any of this, or he did tell, but whoever he told (except for his sisters' ex boy friend) also kept it a secret and never told anyone, not even 30-150 years later. And Lafayette Baker and crew, everyone in the cavalry patrol and working with Stanton also keep it a secret. To many people know to much. Your scenario sounds slightly implausible.
RE: One more post, on one broken leg. - Troy Cowan - 09-12-2013 11:47 PM
(09-12-2013 06:14 PM)Dave Taylor Wrote: Alright, I'll restate my question so that you understand what I'm asking. Troy, at what point in the traditional escape route story does Boyd come in? When does David Herold essentially change traveling companions and Where/how does Booth make his escape according to your theory?
Dave, why are you asking me about the traditional story? You should be asking Laurie.
But, again, you are asking me and my answer is-at the Rappahannock River crossing after three of Mosby's soldiers arrive, David introduces himself as Boyd and introduces another man standing there as James William Boyd. I believe that it was James W. Boyd and Booth was still hiding under the mattress in the wagon.
After the three crossed the Rappahannock, Booth reached in his pockets to get the money he owed Boyd for his services. Booth discovered the money was missing. He asked Boyd to go back across the Rappahannock and see if he could find his missing items. Booth couldn't wait out in the open, so he went on to the Garrett's, leaving Herold to wait for Boyd. Booth told Herold that if Boyd found the money that he and Boyd were to go to Bowling Green and buy him a new pair of shoes and then meet him back at the Garrett's the following day. The next day a troop of soldiers passed the Garrett's house and Booth decides he needs to move on. He headed for his farm and his lover, Izola.
Booth left the Garrett farm in the afternoon on the next day after his arrival. That night Boyd and Herold arrive at the Garrett's and they are shone the way to the corn crib where Boyd is mistaken for Booth.
RE: One more post, on one broken leg. - RJNorton - 09-13-2013 06:31 AM
(09-12-2013 11:47 PM)Troy Cowan Wrote: That night Boyd and Herold arrive at the Garrett's and they are shone the way to the corn crib where Boyd is mistaken for Booth.
The body was identified at least 4 times - at Garrett's, aboard the Montauk, at Harvey and Marr's in Washington in 1869, and at Weaver's in Baltimore in 1869. All of these people identified the wrong body?
RE: One more post, on one broken leg. - Dave Taylor - 09-13-2013 07:56 AM
(09-12-2013 11:47 PM)Troy Cowan Wrote: Dave, why are you asking me about the traditional story? You should be asking Laurie.
But, again, you are asking me and my answer is-at the Rappahannock River crossing after three of Mosby's soldiers arrive, David introduces himself as Boyd and introduces another man standing there as James William Boyd. I believe that it was James W. Boyd and Booth was still hiding under the mattress in the wagon.
After the three crossed the Rappahannock, Booth reached in his pockets to get the money he owed Boyd for his services. Booth discovered the money was missing. He asked Boyd to go back across the Rappahannock and see if he could find his missing items. Booth couldn't wait out in the open, so he went on to the Garrett's, leaving Herold to wait for Boyd. Booth told Herold that if Boyd found the money that he and Boyd were to go to Bowling Green and buy him a new pair of shoes and then meet him back at the Garrett's the following day. The next day a troop of soldiers passed the Garrett's house and Booth decides he needs to move on. He headed for his farm and his lover, Izola.
Booth left the Garrett farm in the afternoon on the next day after his arrival. That night Boyd and Herold arrive at the Garrett's and they are shone the way to the corn crib where Boyd is mistaken for Booth.
Troy,
I am of the understsnding that it would be an act of futility for me to debate with you why your information above is incorrect, however for the purposes of others who might read this forum and believe what you have written to be even slightly plausible, I feel the need to correct it.
There are countless sources I could use to show the true timeline of events as they occurred at the Garrett farm, but I think it would be succinct enough to quote from Rev. Richard Baynham Garrett, who was 12 years old when John Wilkes Booth visited and was killed at his father's farm. He replied to a letter written by a man who was investigating Finis Bates' similar theory that John Wilkes Booth escaped his death. Like Mr. Cowan's theory, both rely on another man taking the place Booth in the barn. To these claims Rev. Garrett writes, "...it is a fact that on the second day of his stay at my father's home, Booth became alarmed at the passing of some soldiers in sight of the house and hobbled on his crutches to some woods back of the house where he remained for an hour or two. Mr. Bates in his letter to me alludes to this fact and asks 'How do you know that the same man came back from the woods that came into the woods?' Did he think us a set of fools that we should not know a man in broad daylight that we had been entertaining for two days?"
The truth is, David Herold returned to the Garretts on April 25th before the federal troops went by the house. Davy is the one who helped Booth into the woods to hide and he is the one who retrieved him after they passed. If it was a different person who came back, the Garretts would have noticed. After the woods incident, Booth and Davy had a nice sit down dinner with the Garrett family and proceeded to talk with the family on the porch later. Jack and Will Garrett escorted Booth and Herold into the barn that night due to the odd behavior of going into the woods, and Herold's obvious lies about his fictitious time in the Confederate service. Jack and Will locked the pair in the tobacco house, and slept in the corn crib to make sure the pair made no attempt to steal their horses. All of this is supported with actual documentation and period evidence.
RE: One more post, on one broken leg. - wsanto - 09-13-2013 08:17 AM
(09-12-2013 11:47 PM)Troy Cowan Wrote:(09-12-2013 06:14 PM)Dave Taylor Wrote: Alright, I'll restate my question so that you understand what I'm asking. Troy, at what point in the traditional escape route story does Boyd come in? When does David Herold essentially change traveling companions and Where/how does Booth make his escape according to your theory?
Dave, why are you asking me about the traditional story? You should be asking Laurie.
But, again, you are asking me and my answer is-at the Rappahannock River crossing after three of Mosby's soldiers arrive, David introduces himself as Boyd and introduces another man standing there as James William Boyd. I believe that it was James W. Boyd and Booth was still hiding under the mattress in the wagon.
After the three crossed the Rappahannock, Booth reached in his pockets to get the money he owed Boyd for his services. Booth discovered the money was missing. He asked Boyd to go back across the Rappahannock and see if he could find his missing items. Booth couldn't wait out in the open, so he went on to the Garrett's, leaving Herold to wait for Boyd. Booth told Herold that if Boyd found the money that he and Boyd were to go to Bowling Green and buy him a new pair of shoes and then meet him back at the Garrett's the following day. The next day a troop of soldiers passed the Garrett's house and Booth decides he needs to move on. He headed for his farm and his lover, Izola.
Booth left the Garrett farm in the afternoon on the next day after his arrival. That night Boyd and Herold arrive at the Garrett's and they are shone the way to the corn crib where Boyd is mistaken for Booth.
Troy, some questions--
Who was the first person with whom Herold and Booth used the name Boyd as a cover? Was it prior to this meeting with the three soldiers?
Herold's last name was not Boyd but he said it was to the three soldiers. Why would he lie about his name and use James' last name rather than just use the name Smith or some other name for both of them?
How is it that James W. Boyd became involved at this point? What was he doing there? And why would he agree to become involved?
Did Herold tell one of the soldiers that he and James W. Boyd assassinated Lincoln? Or did the soldiers know Booth was hiding in the buggy and that he was the assassin?
Wasn't it awfully convenient that the buggy had a false bottom for Booth to hide in? Wouldn't this be unusual?
Did Boyd have a broken left fibula? Or was it said the remains did in order to create the narrative that the body was Booth?
RE: One more post, on one broken leg. - Eva Elisabeth - 09-13-2013 08:42 AM
(09-12-2013 08:53 AM)L Verge Wrote: I questioned that in 2005 when I first read it in Brutus. I already knew his theory, but was very surprised to see him use the "about a dozen" number. I tried to put together a list of even a dozen known people that Booth came in contact with over the days of his escape. I got just about a dozen, but I would question how many of those were told how he broke his leg -- people like Swann, Rollins, Thornton, Miss Peyton, and others had no need to know HOW he broke his leg.
Of course, about half a dozen Garretts were under one roof, but did any of them speak about his horse falling on him? Is it mentioned in any of the statements made by people like Samuel Cox? I'm not sure that Mike would do this, but one way to make a point is to exaggerate your statement and pray that others don't call you on it.
May I ask - as Laurie's post indicates, Mr. Kauffman does not say whether JWB told any of those dozen people in detail how and where the riding accident had happened, does he? (Anyway, regarding there was no eyewitness - does it make such a difference how often he allegedly told it? )
And - did JWB tell the "horse story" to anyone after he had read the newspaper reports and started writing his diary?
Finally - even if JWB indeed told this, wouldn't it make more sense he lied towards even a dozen others than that he lied in his diary (both can't be true), especially at the beginning of his escape and possibly rooting in his personality and a "professional" ego? My personal experience with people of that business is that some actors' egos wouldn't easily allow them to admit (even not towards their spouses) they had failed on stage - and breaking his leg wasn't part of JWB's "superman" role and his original script, and was probably a "no-go" for his greatest performance ever. (Plus as an actor, he stood in his father's and brother's shadow.) To me it makes sense he probably wanted the audience (thus the whole world) to remember his performance as a perfect one - until he learned the world saw his deed differently to what he had expected.
So, my next question is: What do you think was his paramount reason to write his diary? Did he write it just for himself to cope with his thoughts and emotions - like Lincoln wrote letters he finally never sent? Did he intend it to be read after his possible death? (Anyway, if at all, at what point in time would he have considered his escape wouldn't be sucessful or he wouln't even survive? Did he consider this when he started the diary?) I personally can't see a convincing reason why he should have lied in his diary. Maybe you can?
Thanks for any comment.
RE: One more post, on one broken leg. - Gene C - 09-13-2013 08:44 AM
This has given me an idea for a new book. I at least have a title and pen name
"Myths, Legends, and other Unsubstantiated Tales of the Lincoln Assassination" by Kent B Wright
RE: One more post, on one broken leg. - RJNorton - 09-13-2013 09:12 AM
Eva, I enjoyed reading your insight. It makes sense to me. In my opinion, your explanation of why Booth needed an explanation for the broken leg adds another argument for the break happening at Ford's.
I might add that in letters I've received through my website the general public is in favor of the "horse fall theory" by a pretty wide margin, but the opinions are much more evenly divided here on the forum (with the Ford's theory having much more support here than within the public as a whole).
RE: One more post, on one broken leg. - Gene C - 09-13-2013 09:36 AM
Either way, Booth can't win.
The graceful, young, athletic actor, while yielding a large knife wrestles against an unarmed opponent, jumps over the rail to the stage and breaks his leg in the fall or,
the experienced equestrian has a horse fall on him. ( I think both)
His story changes based upon who he is talking to and which version he thinks will gain him the most sympathy and help.
RE: One more post, on one broken leg. - Troy Cowan - 09-13-2013 10:05 AM
Dave, we have discussed this before and I don't know why you want to revisit it. I am providing a short recap.
................................
Dave said,
John Wilkes Booth died on the Garrett porch on the morning of April 26th, 1865.
Campbell's inquiries was a complete fabrication that couldn't even get the detail of Herold not coming to the house until the next day right.
Troy said,
David Harold went to Bowling Green to buy Booth a pair of shoes and was to rejoin Booth the next day. Several other people said similar things. Captain Willie Jett said, "Herold went on to Mrs. Clark's about three miles from bowling Green remained there all night and next day returned to Garrett's."
Dave said,
Like most escape theorists, Carneal and Campbell lied and twisted the truth to attempt to prove their points. Campbell knew full well that Herold didn't come to the Garrett's at the same time as Booth, but included this inaccurate and ultimately forged account because part of it fit his theory.
Troy said,
It is my understanding that William Garrett gave a statement transcribed by another and witnessed by a neutral third party. I don't have a problem with it.
Lets take a closer look at that letter. Words in ( ) are mine. From the disputed William Garrett statement we read--
One evening a while before dark, a couple of men on horseback and in Confederate uniforms came to our place, having with them another young man who had no uniform but had a sore leg. (Bainbridge, Ruggles, and Booth. No mention of Herold.)
The next evening when the crippled man was in the front yard on the grass the two cavalry men came up as fast as they could, said something about they must get to the woods, so one of them took the crippled man on the horse and they started toward the heavy woods this side of the Port. (Booth left and did not return, still no mention of Herold)
That night brother Jack and I kept awake much of the time thinking the men might come back, and father told us not to let any more strangers stay there. A while before day when it was as dark as charcoal outside I heard someone tap on the back door. I crawled out of bed without making any fuss because I didn’t want to wake father and mother who were asleep upstairs. So I opened the door but it was so dark I could only see that there were two of them and one was larger (Boyd) and seemingly older by his voice, but the younger one (Herold) done most of the talking. He said they had come a long ways on foot and was going to some court house but was too tired to go any farther without rest, and they wanted a place to stay. I told them father didn’t want to let any strangers stay there, but if they would be careful and not wake the folks they could stay awhile. They said as they might want to leave at any moment they would prefer some outhouse or crib, so they could go there without disturbing the “old folks” as they called them. I told Jack to not for anything wake father and mother and the men would be gone so they needn’t know they had stayed there. So I showed the strangers to the crib. It was so dark you could not see your hand before you, but I knew the place so well I found the crib door and let them go in where there was hay and cornstalk blades for them to rest on.
Dave, it seems to me that everyone is in agreement that Herold arrived the day after Booth arrived. When you say that this Garrett account does not get this obvious detail right, I must disagree.
Dave said,
Well then I guess we'll have to agree to disagree, Troy.
................................
Dave you said, "The truth is, David Herold returned to the Garretts on April 25th before the federal troops went by the house." Do you really believe that Dave? David Herold (and James Boyd) went some 12 to 15 miles to Bowling Green on the 24th and spent the night. He (and James Boyd) left the next day about noon on foot and arrived at the Garrett's house about ten p.m. on the 25th.
RE: One more post, on one broken leg. - Eva Elisabeth - 09-13-2013 10:12 AM
Troy, did you read Roger's question? Could you, please, reply to it? I, too, would be most interested in that. Thanks.
RE: One more post, on one broken leg. - Troy Cowan - 09-13-2013 11:27 AM
(09-13-2013 10:12 AM)Eva Elisabeth Wrote: Troy, did you read Roger's question? Could you, please, reply to it? I, too, would be most interested in that. Thanks.
Please specify.
RE: One more post, on one broken leg. - Gene C - 09-13-2013 11:30 AM
(09-13-2013 11:27 AM)Troy Cowan Wrote:(09-13-2013 10:12 AM)Eva Elisabeth Wrote: Troy, did you read Roger's question? Could you, please, reply to it? I, too, would be most interested in that. Thanks.
Please specify.
The question at the end of post #18
RE: One more post, on one broken leg. - Dave Taylor - 09-13-2013 11:51 AM
(09-13-2013 10:05 AM)Troy Cowan Wrote: Dave you said, "The truth is, David Herold returned to the Garretts on April 25th before the federal troops went by the house." Do you really believe that Dave? David Herold (and James Boyd) went some 12 to 15 miles to Bowling Green on the 24th and spent the night. He (and James Boyd) left the next day about noon on foot and arrived at the Garrett's house about ten p.m. on the 25th.
Do I believe well documented evidence? Yes, I certainly do and so does every other historian. I can provide you with many accounts giving the time that Herold arrived at the Garretts, and it is during mid afternoon, after lunch but before supper. He was dropped off by Bainbridge and Ruggles and there was no one else with him.
RE: One more post, on one broken leg. - L Verge - 09-13-2013 12:11 PM
You know, at first this whole "debate" would get me upset and mad. I am now finding it downright hilarious to see how far the facts can be twisted or completely dismissed. Even Vaughn Shelton and Ray Neff would be laughing over these postings -- and probably saying, "Why didn't we think of throwing that in?"