+- Lincoln Discussion Symposium (https://rogerjnorton.com/LincolnDiscussionSymposium)
+-- Forum: Lincoln Discussion Symposium (/forum-1.html)
+--- Forum: Assassination (/forum-5.html)
+--- Thread: New photo of Dr Mudd from Mr Dave Taylor? (/thread-4060.html)
Pages: 1 2
New photo of Dr Mudd from Mr Dave Taylor? - estonensb - 05-19-2019 10:46 AM
Hello all, I have been of out the research game but have been recently getting back into the swing of things. Earlier I came across a new post by Dave Taylor about his recent camping trip. He discovered a photo with a great resemblance to Dry Mudd sitting outside the fort. What are your thoughts on this photo?
https://boothiebarn.com/
https://boothiebarn.files.wordpress.com/2019/05/dr.-samuel-mudd-at-fort-jefferson-drto.jpg
RE: New photo of Dr Mudd from Mr Dave Taylor? - L Verge - 05-19-2019 12:23 PM
I was getting ready to post this on boothiebarn, but will post here first:
Dave puts up a good argument, but I’m not convinced. First of all, he’s comparing clothing with the posed photo in the supposed carpentry shop. I don’t think Mudd was photographed there because he was just too nicely dressed to be working. I want someone to tell me what the prisoners at Ft. Jefferson wore usually – certainly not clothes nice enough for church. I also question the style of hat for ca. 1869.
My only other guess might be that Mudd is sitting there waiting for the moment to board the ship that would finally take him to freedom. If we could only enlarge the facial features without distortion...
RE: New photo of Dr Mudd from Mr Dave Taylor? - L Verge - 05-19-2019 03:26 PM
(05-19-2019 12:23 PM)L Verge Wrote: I was getting ready to post this on boothiebarn, but will post here first:
Dave puts up a good argument, but I’m not convinced. First of all, he’s comparing clothing with the posed photo in the supposed carpentry shop. I don’t think Mudd was photographed there because he was just too nicely dressed to be working. I want someone to tell me what the prisoners at Ft. Jefferson wore usually – certainly not clothes nice enough for church. I also question the style of hat for ca. 1869.
My only other guess might be that Mudd is sitting there waiting for the moment to board the ship that would finally take him to freedom. If we could only enlarge the facial features without distortion...
We are getting closer to thinking that this might be an unknown photo of Dr. Mudd. Dave cites original sources from documents at the fort related to Mudd's one attempt at escaping and also about clothing that he received, and these documents answer a lot of our questions.
RE: New photo of Dr Mudd from Mr Dave Taylor? - GustD45 - 05-20-2019 09:31 AM
I read Dave's article on Boothiebarn about finding the unknown photograph of Dr. Mudd and I believe I can see his argument.
RE: New photo of Dr Mudd from Mr Dave Taylor? - Rob Wick - 05-20-2019 10:08 AM
If the photograph is actually a photo of a photo, could the 1870 date represent when the second photo was taken? I can see definite similarities between Mudd and the photo, and Dave is obviously a careful researcher, but I still can't say with 100 percent certainty that it's Mudd.
Best
Rob
RE: New photo of Dr Mudd from Mr Dave Taylor? - Dave Taylor - 05-20-2019 11:58 AM
(05-20-2019 10:08 AM)Rob Wick Wrote: ...I still can't say with 100 percent certainty that it's Mudd.
I can't either, Rob and I hope that I made that clear in my post. The quality of the image precludes us from being 100% certain that this is Dr. Mudd. Still, I believe that there are enough points of physical similarity between the photographed subject and Dr. Mudd to make it likely that they are the same man. The other pieces of evidence support the possibility as well.
It very well could just be a very similar looking doppelganger, but I am going to choose to believe that it is Dr. Mudd. If others don't, I completely understand as this sort of thing can be quite subjective.
RE: New photo of Dr Mudd from Mr Dave Taylor? - Rob Wick - 05-20-2019 02:17 PM
I have to say, Dave, that you present a very intriguing case. This is not something one can just dismiss out of hand, like so many other photographs. Excellent work, Dave!
Best
Rob
RE: New photo of Dr Mudd from Mr Dave Taylor? - Steve - 05-20-2019 04:56 PM
Dave, I would recommend contacting the National Park Service and asking where the physical copy of this photograph is located. Their files might...might have some more information on the original stereoscopic photograph this photo was taken of.
If the man were standing it might have been possible to extrapolate his height range from known features of the building and then compare the man's height to Dr. Mudd's. He's sitting on the railing, so I don't know if that's still possible. It still might be worth showing the image to a REPUTABLE expert to see if they can actually determine the man's height or any other physical characteristic that could be compared to known information about Mudd.
RE: New photo of Dr Mudd from Mr Dave Taylor? - Gene C - 05-20-2019 10:46 PM
I know of a facial recognition expert -
Do you have a good photo of Dr. Sam he can use for comparison?
If we enter into the computer 1200 additional photos of people who look nothing like Dr Mudd, using the farcical recognition software, our expert can identify your photo as Dr Mudd with 99% certainty.
Seriously Dave, I hope it is Dr. Mudd, you have presented a reasonable and strong case.
RE: New photo of Dr Mudd from Mr Dave Taylor? - L Verge - 05-21-2019 09:13 AM
I hope members here are also following along on boothiebarn. Ed Steers gave a very complete description of the fort and the attire of the one soldier that is easy to see that certainly is right on target with 1869.
He did bring up a point to ponder on the coat that the civilian (Dr. Mudd?) is wearing. It lacks the skirt that men's frock coats would have. It is shorter than those also. Ed suggested an army fatigue jacket, but I'm leaning towards a civilian sack coat. And, I think such a piece would be more in keeping with what he would have brought from home or have sent to him -- or given to him while preparing for his trip home.
RE: New photo of Dr Mudd from Mr Dave Taylor? - GustD45 - 05-21-2019 09:40 AM
(05-20-2019 10:08 AM)Rob Wick Wrote: If the photograph is actually a photo of a photo, could the 1870 date represent when the second photo was taken?
My wife and i conjectured the same thing Rob.
RE: New photo of Dr Mudd from Mr Dave Taylor? - Rob Wick - 05-21-2019 07:39 PM
The physique of the man sitting on the wall railing appears to match the physique of the picture of Mudd when he was in the carpenter's shop, although admittedly the man's arm is blocking much of the torso. Do we have a description of Mudd after he was released? In other words, had he lost much weight while in prison or had he generally stayed the same?
Best
Rob
RE: New photo of Dr Mudd from Mr Dave Taylor? - RJNorton - 05-22-2019 04:09 AM
Rob, I just checked Nettie's book and here are a few comments Samuel made about his weight when he was at Ft. Jefferson. These comments are from his letters to his wife.
February 14, 1867:
"I fail to perceive and conjecture anything favorable. I cannot yet look forward to any period with certainty. In the mean time, I am making myself as content as circumstances will permit. My health has continued unusually good through the winter up to this time; God grant I may be spared another summer here. I weighed a few days ago one hundred and forty-five, which is only a few pounds short of my usual weight."
August 10, 1867:
"You seem desirous to know something about my health, fare, looks, and weight. I thought I had satisfied your curiosity on these points previously. Having nothing to occupy my pen, I again attempt a description. My health is not good, but much better than formerly. Our fare consists principally of salt pork, bread and coffee — fresh beef two or three times in every ten days. We had issued yesterday to us, eight in number, about a peck of Irish potatoes, the first vegetables of any kind since last January, with the exception of corn and beans occasionally.
As regards my looks, being an interested party, I might be inclined to flatter; but to answer your inquiry, I must pass a judgment or opinion no matter how incompetent, therefore, agreeable to the best estimate I am capable of forming, my appearance is about the same as when I left home, with the exception that my hair is considerably thinner, consequently the bald head more perceptible, and no doubt larger in circumference. I have no wrinkles, and wear constantly a
mustache and goatee. Owing to the peculiarity of my skin, and not much exposed to the sun, I am paler or fairer than when I left home. I may be a few pounds lighter, perhaps about a hundred and forty-four or five. My manners about the same, impulsive, etc. Generally, have but little to say, but think a great deal. I am very weak, though in appearance strong."
December 6, 1867:
"My health continues very good, and I have increased several pounds in weight the past two or three weeks. I am now taking things as easy as possible, after finding all my endeavors fruitless and your promises of an early release mere speculation."
This is what I found - maybe I missed some. But it would appear that his weight, through 1867, remained pretty consistent in the mid-140s. IMO, Dr. Mudd's weight would be considered pretty average for males during that time period in American history.
RE: New photo of Dr Mudd from Mr Dave Taylor? - Rob Wick - 05-22-2019 10:30 AM
Thanks Roger. So it appears that Mudd generally had the same frame coming out as he did going in. While it certainly is far from conclusive, the picture of the man on the railing would fit Mudd's known physique.
Best
Rob
RE: New photo of Dr Mudd from Mr Dave Taylor? - L Verge - 05-22-2019 07:25 PM
Rick Smith just sent something for us to ponder about the outfit on this person, especially if it is possibly Dr. Mudd. Comments have been made on boothiebarn about Dr. Mudd having been sent a variety of clothes from his wife and family members. Rick wonders how many things were sent over the four years and how many remained in good condition given the harsh and filthy conditions described by fellow conspirator/prisoner Samuel Arnold in his published memoirs.