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+--- Thread: Derringer (/thread-3784.html)
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Derringer - AussieMick - 07-22-2018 03:59 AM
Has anybody tried to find out about derringers similar to that used by Booth? (Wikipedia says 15,000 derringers in total were made ... some were copies of the unpatented derringer ... it seems Booth's was a genuine Philadelphia Derringer).
https://archives.fbi.gov/archives/about-us/lab/forensic-science-communications/fsc/jan2001/schehl.htm
Apparently it (if we can be sure that the one assessed was in fact the one used) was unusual in that it had a counter-clockwise rifling (left-twist).
So my queries are ...
1. How many such derringers with that rifling were made (happy with a evidence-based estimate obviously). The FBI report has "How frequently this rifling pattern occurred during the production of the original Deringer pocket pistols is unknown." Ok, but do we know how many such derringers (with that rifling) now exist from that period? As compared to those with 'normal' rifling? I should imagine auctioneers could hazard a reasonable guess.
2. Were derringers with that rifling more common in , say, Canada or the South than Washington ... Ok, we will probably never know. Unless a weapon/antique expert can express an opinion.
3. What was the reason for that rifling? Was it cheaper to make? Or more expensive? How did it affect the way the weapon was used ?
(Be good if you know someone that has some genuine firearm knowledge)
4. Was Booth known to carry weapons? Maybe thats a simplistic question we'll never answer ... but how common was it for people such as actors to carry a weapon? Was it legal for a non-military person to carry a gun in Washington ?
I know the weapon has been called an assassin's weapon although I dont know of any other time it was used for that purpose. I do find it odd that Booth took the risk of the single-shot weapon misfiring (yes I know he had a knife). Would a revolver really have been too conspicuous? Was he perhaps provided with the derringer by someone that wanted to force him to get physically close to Lincoln so that there was no chance of missing ( a revolver could have resulted in Booth firing from a distance and nervously spraying the shots around).
RE: Derringer - L Verge - 07-22-2018 08:47 AM
(07-22-2018 03:59 AM)AussieMick Wrote: Has anybody tried to find out about derringers similar to that used by Booth? (Wikipedia says 15,000 derringers in total were made ... some were copies of the unpatented derringer ... it seems Booth's was a genuine Philadelphia Derringer).
https://archives.fbi.gov/archives/about-us/lab/forensic-science-communications/fsc/jan2001/schehl.htm
Apparently it (if we can be sure that the one assessed was in fact the one used) was unusual in that it had a counter-clockwise rifling (left-twist).
So my queries are ...
1. How many such derringers with that rifling were made (happy with a evidence-based estimate obviously). The FBI report has "How frequently this rifling pattern occurred during the production of the original Deringer pocket pistols is unknown." Ok, but do we know how many such derringers (with that rifling) now exist from that period? As compared to those with 'normal' rifling? I should imagine auctioneers could hazard a reasonable guess.
2. Were derringers with that rifling more common in , say, Canada or the South than Washington ... Ok, we will probably never know. Unless a weapon/antique expert can express an opinion.
3. What was the reason for that rifling? Was it cheaper to make? Or more expensive? How did it affect the way the weapon was used ?
(Be good if you know someone that has some genuine firearm knowledge)
4. Was Booth known to carry weapons? Maybe thats a simplistic question we'll never answer ... but how common was it for people such as actors to carry a weapon? Was it legal for a non-military person to carry a gun in Washington ?
I know the weapon has been called an assassin's weapon although I dont know of any other time it was used for that purpose. I do find it odd that Booth took the risk of the single-shot weapon misfiring (yes I know he had a knife). Would a revolver really have been too conspicuous? Was he perhaps provided with the derringer by someone that wanted to force him to get physically close to Lincoln so that there was no chance of missing ( a revolver could have resulted in Booth firing from a distance and nervously spraying the shots around).
This is definitely a subject for Wesley Harris to tackle; he's our resident expert on the weapons of the assassins and is finishing a book on that subject. Joe Beckert might have some information also.
For my two-cents' worth, I think the carrying of firearms in that era was fairly common - by both men and women. When discussing the derringer with visitors to Surratt House, I often referred to it being termed a "ladies' pistol," because women were known to carry them in their reticules and fur muffs for protection. Weren't they fairly useful for riverboat gamblers, etc.?
RE: Derringer - Gene C - 07-23-2018 06:31 AM
There was an episode of the old TV show Yancey Derringer - The Gun That Murdered Lincoln, but it is no longer on YouTube.
Like Rhett Butler or Brett Maverick, with Tonto.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CpY0SeeejXo
RE: Derringer - AussieMick - 07-23-2018 07:40 AM
(07-23-2018 06:31 AM)Gene C Wrote: There was an episode of the old TV show Yancey Derringer - The Gun That Murdered Lincoln, but it is no longer on YouTube.
Like Rhett Butler or Brett Maverick, with Tonto.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CpY0SeeejXo
I'm fairly sure that Yancey Derringer wasnt shown in the UK. Otherwise I would have watched it. as I did Wagon Train and The Lone Ranger and Bonanza and Rawhide and Have Gun Will Travel and ... and ...
RE: Derringer - Wesley Harris - 07-28-2018 03:03 PM
I don't put much stock in the "difference" in the rifling of the Booth Deringer. Every Deringer was handmade and each is slightly different from the others. Deringer barrels were actually cut from longer rifle barrels and then modified. A craftsman might cut a barrel to a length of 3" or 3 1/8" or 2 3/4" or whatever--his discretion. There was little standardization on Henry Deringer pistols. Since each is hand engraved, every one is slightly different in its appearance. The world's #1 Henry Deringer expert showed me a pistol that was the closest he had seen to the size of the Booth pistol. It is much smaller than most Deringers, and the only one he had ever seen remotely close to the size of the Booth weapon.
The direction of the rifling twist--left or right--would make no difference in the ballistics or accuracy of a tiny pistol. The Booth Deringer doesn't have any significant rifling anyway. The deep grooves (cuts) you see at the tip of the barrel do not extend at that depth down the barrel. See attached photo of the Booth pistol I took at the Ford's museum. The expert I mentioned say the deep grooves at the muzzle are "for show." They don't affect the projectile at all.
There are a number of documented instances of Booth carrying a pistol. I can't say he was always armed, but frequently enough that it was routine for him.
And the book WILL be finished some day!
Another photo of the barrel taken by the FBI:
RE: Derringer - AussieMick - 07-29-2018 07:27 AM
thanks Wesley. Great to have an opinion such as yours. I recall reading (somewhere) that Booth was known to often carry a gun.
The rifling is a puzzle though ... I can see that it wouldnt have much effect on such a small gun and over a very short distance. You write "The Booth Deringer doesn't have any significant rifling anyway" . The FBI report though did make reference to it. I guess the FBI was making sure it provided as much information as possible.
Thanks again
RE: Derringer - LincolnMan - 07-29-2018 09:54 AM
And as I’ve mentioned elsewhere on the Forum- there was a second derringer found at scene. Roger can you find that entry?
RE: Derringer - RJNorton - 07-29-2018 02:05 PM
(07-29-2018 09:54 AM)LincolnMan Wrote: And as I’ve mentioned elsewhere on the Forum- there was a second derringer found at scene. Roger can you find that entry?
Bill, you mentioned this topic here.
I am certainly no expert on the question of a second derringer at Ford's. From my reading I agree with Dave Taylor. Please see Dave's post here.
Kees also mentioned a second derringer here, but I do not recall reading about Gifford finding this (although I do see logic in agreeing with those who feel Booth may have gone to Ford's with a second derringer).
Possibly someone with more knowledge than me can comment on the veracity of Gifford's story. Bill, I do not have the Civil War Times Illustrated issue that you cited.
RE: Derringer - Wesley Harris - 07-29-2018 04:13 PM
(07-29-2018 02:05 PM)RJNorton Wrote:(07-29-2018 09:54 AM)LincolnMan Wrote: And as I’ve mentioned elsewhere on the Forum- there was a second derringer found at scene. Roger can you find that entry?
Bill, you mentioned this topic here.
I am certainly no expert on the question of a second derringer at Ford's. From my reading I agree with Dave Taylor. Please see Dave's post here.
Kees also mentioned a second derringer here, but I do not recall reading about Gifford finding this (although I do see logic in agreeing with those who feel Booth may have gone to Ford's with a second derringer).
Possibly someone with more knowledge than me can comment on the veracity of Gifford's story. Bill, I do not have the Civil War Times Illustrated issue that you cited.
I covered at least five accounts of other Deringers found at Ford's Theatre at a Surratt Society Lincoln Assassination Conference a few years ago. Supposedly one was found in a fire bucket, one back stage, one out back, etc, etc. Obviously these are bogus, someone trying to make a buck off a similar weapon. The Gifford story is a bit more plausible but still doubtful. It is engraved "J. Wilkes Booth," is a different caliber and size, certainly not one of a pair. Instead of adding credibility to the pistol, the engraving--in my mind--is more likely to make its authenticity suspect. Ripley's Believe It or Not now owns it.
RE: Derringer - AussieMick - 07-29-2018 06:17 PM
(07-29-2018 04:13 PM)Wesley Harris Wrote:(07-29-2018 02:05 PM)RJNorton Wrote:(07-29-2018 09:54 AM)LincolnMan Wrote: And as I’ve mentioned elsewhere on the Forum- there was a second derringer found at scene. Roger can you find that entry?
Bill, you mentioned this topic here.
I am certainly no expert on the question of a second derringer at Ford's. From my reading I agree with Dave Taylor. Please see Dave's post here.
Kees also mentioned a second derringer here, but I do not recall reading about Gifford finding this (although I do see logic in agreeing with those who feel Booth may have gone to Ford's with a second derringer).
Possibly someone with more knowledge than me can comment on the veracity of Gifford's story. Bill, I do not have the Civil War Times Illustrated issue that you cited.
I covered at least five accounts of other Deringers found at Ford's Theatre at a Surratt Society Lincoln Assassination Conference a few years ago. Supposedly one was found in a fire bucket, one back stage, one out back, etc, etc. Obviously these are bogus, someone trying to make a buck off a similar weapon. The Gifford story is a bit more plausible but still doubtful. It is engraved "J. Wilkes Booth," is a different caliber and size, certainly not one of a pair. Instead of adding credibility to the pistol, the engraving--in my mind--is more likely to make its authenticity suspect. Ripley's Believe It or Not now owns it.
I know processes were different in those days and I 'm well aware that Australia (for example) would certainly not have had a very "forensic" inquiry or effective in 1865 in the same circumstances.
But it is strange we know so little about where Booth obtained the derringer. I guess my interest had been influenced by the conspiracy posts that I read on this forum.
Of course he could have had it for several years and that would make it near impossible to learn from where he got it.
On a side note I was fascinated to read (somewhere) that derringer-owners would often need to make their 'bullet' using a lead smelting tool. That bemused me because I couldnt imagine delicate ladies making their own bullets.
RE: Derringer - L Verge - 07-29-2018 07:04 PM
(07-29-2018 06:17 PM)AussieMick Wrote:(07-29-2018 04:13 PM)Wesley Harris Wrote:(07-29-2018 02:05 PM)RJNorton Wrote:(07-29-2018 09:54 AM)LincolnMan Wrote: And as I’ve mentioned elsewhere on the Forum- there was a second derringer found at scene. Roger can you find that entry?
Bill, you mentioned this topic here.
I am certainly no expert on the question of a second derringer at Ford's. From my reading I agree with Dave Taylor. Please see Dave's post here.
Kees also mentioned a second derringer here, but I do not recall reading about Gifford finding this (although I do see logic in agreeing with those who feel Booth may have gone to Ford's with a second derringer).
Possibly someone with more knowledge than me can comment on the veracity of Gifford's story. Bill, I do not have the Civil War Times Illustrated issue that you cited.
I covered at least five accounts of other Deringers found at Ford's Theatre at a Surratt Society Lincoln Assassination Conference a few years ago. Supposedly one was found in a fire bucket, one back stage, one out back, etc, etc. Obviously these are bogus, someone trying to make a buck off a similar weapon. The Gifford story is a bit more plausible but still doubtful. It is engraved "J. Wilkes Booth," is a different caliber and size, certainly not one of a pair. Instead of adding credibility to the pistol, the engraving--in my mind--is more likely to make its authenticity suspect. Ripley's Believe It or Not now owns it.
I know processes were different in those days and I 'm well aware that Australia (for example) would certainly not have had a very "forensic" inquiry or effective in 1865 in the same circumstances.
But it is strange we know so little about where Booth obtained the derringer. I guess my interest had been influenced by the conspiracy posts that I read on this forum.
Of course he could have had it for several years and that would make it near impossible to learn from where he got it.
On a side note I was fascinated to read (somewhere) that derringer-owners would often need to make their 'bullet' using a lead smelting tool. That bemused me because I couldnt imagine delicate ladies making their own bullets.
I believe I posted years ago that there is a story that Booth rec'd a pair (?) of Deringers from a gentleman who witnessed the actor being threatened by a husband who did not appreciate Booth's attention to his wife.
As for bullet molds, there was one found in Mary Surratt's desk at the boardinghouse during the investigation. Country girls probably were more adept at such things - especially during the Civil War in Southern Maryland where stragglers and Union soldiers plagued farm owners. I don't know what the smelting tool looked like, but the new-fangled cook stoves probably came in handy.
RE: Derringer - Eva Elisabeth - 07-30-2018 05:11 PM
Just curious - Dave posted Derringers were usually sold in pairs - why? And for whom if it was a lady weapon? (Would one lady have carried two???)
Also (forgive my ignorance) - where were they sold? Weapon stores? (Did such exist back then?) No license required I guess...
My last question - if it was a lady weapons - didn't it have a "gay touch" for a man to possess one?
RE: Derringer - L Verge - 07-30-2018 05:37 PM
(07-30-2018 05:11 PM)Eva Elisabeth Wrote: Just curious - Dave posted Derringers were usually sold in pairs - why? And for whom if it was a lady weapon? (Would one lady have carried two???)
Also (forgive my ignorance) - where were they sold? Weapon stores? (Did such exist back then?) No license required I guess...
My last question - if it was a lady weapons - didn't it have a "gay touch" for a man to possess one?
My thought on why they were sold in pairs is that the second one was a backup in case you missed your target the first time, had no time to reload, and the weapon wasn't that reliable???
Quora.com says that guns could be bought in general hardware stores or through catalogs by the 1850s -- or some folks just went directly to the manufacturers (but most of them were centered in the North).
Men used the weapons before women, so they were not considered effeminate. Prostitutes were some of the first women to use the derringer, so they might have owned a pair for safety's sake. Many of them probably got the idea from working in the saloons and riverboats and seeing the gamblers use them efficiently. Or, women were given one for protection by their husbands or fathers.
RE: Derringer - Steve - 07-30-2018 05:55 PM
(07-29-2018 04:13 PM)Wesley Harris Wrote:(07-29-2018 02:05 PM)RJNorton Wrote:(07-29-2018 09:54 AM)LincolnMan Wrote: And as I’ve mentioned elsewhere on the Forum- there was a second derringer found at scene. Roger can you find that entry?
Bill, you mentioned this topic here.
I am certainly no expert on the question of a second derringer at Ford's. From my reading I agree with Dave Taylor. Please see Dave's post here.
Kees also mentioned a second derringer here, but I do not recall reading about Gifford finding this (although I do see logic in agreeing with those who feel Booth may have gone to Ford's with a second derringer).
Possibly someone with more knowledge than me can comment on the veracity of Gifford's story. Bill, I do not have the Civil War Times Illustrated issue that you cited.
I covered at least five accounts of other Deringers found at Ford's Theatre at a Surratt Society Lincoln Assassination Conference a few years ago. Supposedly one was found in a fire bucket, one back stage, one out back, etc, etc. Obviously these are bogus, someone trying to make a buck off a similar weapon. The Gifford story is a bit more plausible but still doubtful. It is engraved "J. Wilkes Booth," is a different caliber and size, certainly not one of a pair. Instead of adding credibility to the pistol, the engraving--in my mind--is more likely to make its authenticity suspect. Ripley's Believe It or Not now owns it.
Wow, there are 5 other derringers that are claimed to have been found at Ford's! That put's the number of "Booth spurs" to shame. Besides the real gun, I had only heard of the Ripley's pistol before. I agree the engraving makes me suspect its authenticity as well. Is there any documentation to actually link the Ripley's pistol to Gifford, ie something written by Gifford or close to the date of the assassination or a newspaper account mentioning Gifford's association with the pistol published during his lifetime or shortly thereafter?
RE: Derringer - LincolnMan - 07-31-2018 05:06 AM
Just thinking out loud here: if Booth had brought two pistols with him that night- why didn’t he use the second one? It would have been easier to shoot the second one than to engage in a knife attack.