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Atzerodt Confession - JMadonna - 02-18-2017 09:31 PM
In his confession Atzerodt states:
Thos. Holborn was to meet us on the road and help in the kidnapping. Bailey & Barnes knew nothing of the affair unless Booth told Bailey & he told Barnes. Booth had met Bailey on "C" St. with me. I did not meet Booth or any other of the party in Baltimore on or about the 31 of March.
Does anyone know anything about Barnes and Bailey?
RE: Atzerodt Confession - SSlater - 02-18-2017 10:17 PM
(02-18-2017 09:31 PM)JMadonna Wrote: In his confession Atzerodt states:These two must have been among "the half that they didn't get""
Thos. Holborn was to meet us on the road and help in the kidnapping. Bailey & Barnes knew nothing of the affair unless Booth told Bailey & he told Barnes. Booth had met Bailey on "C" St. with me. I did not meet Booth or any other of the party in Baltimore on or about the 31 of March.
Does anyone know anything about Barnes and Bailey?
I assumed that since they were friends of Atzerodt and operated along the Potomac, that they were to help with the "Big Boat". Since they never called for the big boat, they never called for them. Atzerodt may have given them some money, or promised big money, but never made the call.
RE: Atzerodt Confession - John Fazio - 02-19-2017 01:39 AM
(02-18-2017 09:31 PM)JMadonna Wrote: In his confession Atzerodt states:
Thos. Holborn was to meet us on the road and help in the kidnapping. Bailey & Barnes knew nothing of the affair unless Booth told Bailey & he told Barnes. Booth had met Bailey on "C" St. with me. I did not meet Booth or any other of the party in Baltimore on or about the 31 of March.
Does anyone know anything about Barnes and Bailey?
Jerry:
Mike Kauffman mentions that Atzerodt was seen flashing wads of bills in front of his friends from Charles County, Walter Barnes and Henry M. Baily. (American Brutus, p. 234) Their role in the conspiracy is unclear. There were many who were involved in some way and in some degree who were never arrested, or if arrested, never charged, or if arrested and charged, released. See p. 302 of Decapitating. Recall that Herold said that Booth told him there were 35 involved. Recall, too, that Chester testified that Booth told him there were 50 to 100 involved. Surely such numbers must have been needed to man the boat and otherwise assist in the "kidnapping". Recall too that Powell said that Federal prosecutors didn't have "the one-half of them" and that it was his impression that arrangements had been made for the same disposition of other Union leaders as he was to make of Seward. Interesting how all these conspirators were primed to kidnap Lincoln, but re-oriented themselves and made new "arrangements" almost overnight to kill him and a lot of other people when Booth decided that kidnapping just wasn't going to work and that murder was the way to go. Booth must have had enormous powers of persuasion or very deep pockets, or both.
John
RE: Atzerodt Confession - JMadonna - 02-19-2017 10:49 AM
Thanks guys both answers make sense. As you know the recorder of Atzerodt's confession only recorded his answers to questions - not the questions. Therefore the confession is choppy not knowing when one answer starts and another begins.
The line before the Baily & Barnes reference reads:
Plenty of parties in Charles County knew of the kidnapping affair.One of the men named Charles Yates, knew all about it, he went to Richmond during the winter he was to row the Presdt & party over.
So its probably safe to assume he was answering about who was involved within Charles county.
BTW I found Barnes & Baily's statements in The Lincoln Assassination: The Evidence - p.96 -97
- Roger might make a fun exercise to have people guess the questions based on the answers. Sort of a Johnny Carson "Carnac" routine.
John, I would say Powell's estimate of that they didn't have "the one-half of them" would be the most accurate since he met them in New York with Booth. I doubt Davy Herold could count to 35 and Booth's total to Chester was pure braggadocio.
RE: Atzerodt Confession - RJNorton - 02-19-2017 12:30 PM
(07-29-2015 10:37 PM)SSlater Wrote: I do not doubt anything you have read, but I read a different scenario. Unfortunately, I can't be brief.
I did some serious research on Thompson, when I was hunting Sarah. I found that he worked well with Lee and stayed on to the end of the war, after which he went abroad with Catherine Ann (Kate).
He did run into some problems with the U.S. Government, over some proposed "Peace Talks" with Lincoln. A man named Halmor H. Emmons claimed that Lincoln asked him to arrange the talks,. This was not true. Emmons was moving on his own volition. It also involved a John F. Potter -(U. S. General Council in Canada). At any rate, Thompson decided that Lincoln really wanted to talk, so he went to Washington, under the code name "Kate Thompson". But Seward opposed any talks between the two governments. So it was called off.
All this came to the attention of the Government of Canada, and they proposed to evict Thompson for being an "Espionage Mastermind". Well, all this was overcome by events. The South lost. Thompson and Catherine went to Europe for a few years.
Maybe, that author was referring to these problems, but I have never found any bad feelings between the South and Thompson.
I am confused as to who Kate Thompson was. John, in the post above it sounds like he was a male.
But in Atzerodt's confession which Jerry refers to it says:
"Kate Thompson or Kate Brown, as she was known by both names, put up at National & was well known at Penn House. She knew all about the affair. Surratt went to Richd with her last March and Gust. Howell made a trip with her to same place. This woman is about twenty yrs of age, good looking and well dressed. Black hair and eyes, round face from South Carolina & a widow."
To me this "Kate Thompson" sounds like Sarah Slater.
My question is --> were there two "Kate Thompsons"...one male and one female?
RE: Atzerodt Confession - John Fazio - 02-19-2017 01:30 PM
(02-19-2017 12:30 PM)RJNorton Wrote:(07-29-2015 10:37 PM)SSlater Wrote: I do not doubt anything you have read, but I read a different scenario. Unfortunately, I can't be brief.
I did some serious research on Thompson, when I was hunting Sarah. I found that he worked well with Lee and stayed on to the end of the war, after which he went abroad with Catherine Ann (Kate).
He did run into some problems with the U.S. Government, over some proposed "Peace Talks" with Lincoln. A man named Halmor H. Emmons claimed that Lincoln asked him to arrange the talks,. This was not true. Emmons was moving on his own volition. It also involved a John F. Potter -(U. S. General Council in Canada). At any rate, Thompson decided that Lincoln really wanted to talk, so he went to Washington, under the code name "Kate Thompson". But Seward opposed any talks between the two governments. So it was called off.
All this came to the attention of the Government of Canada, and they proposed to evict Thompson for being an "Espionage Mastermind". Well, all this was overcome by events. The South lost. Thompson and Catherine went to Europe for a few years.
Maybe, that author was referring to these problems, but I have never found any bad feelings between the South and Thompson.
I am confused as to who Kate Thompson was. John, in the post above it sounds like he was a male.
But in Atzerodt's confession which Jerry refers to it says:
"Kate Thompson or Kate Brown, as she was known by both names, put up at National & was well known at Penn House. She knew all about the affair. Surratt went to Richd with her last March and Gust. Howell made a trip with her to same place. This woman is about twenty yrs of age, good looking and well dressed. Black hair and eyes, round face from South Carolina & a widow."
To me this "Kate Thompson" sounds like Sarah Slater.
My question is --> were there two "Kate Thompsons"...one male and one female?
Roger:
It is easy to come to the conclusion that they were the same person, but it does not appear to be accurate. In his July 6,1865, confession (the day before his execution), Atzerodt clearly distinguishes between Kate Thompson and Sarah Slater. Early in the confession, he says "Kate Thompson, alias Brown, came from Richmond with John Surratt about the time that Richmond fell., She had come previously with Gustavus Howell...(She) stopped at Mrs. Surratt's and also at the National and Rinnel Hotels. This woman was about 21 years of age, spruce and neat, medium size, black eyes and fair complexion..." Later, in the same confession, he says: "After this, Howell brought a woman across the Potomac." Still later he says: Mrs. Surratt, Mrs. Slater, Major Banon and John Surratt left Washington together, got horses at Howards. ...John Surratt and Mrs. Slater crossed , and Banon and Mrs. Surratt came back." It seems reasonably clear from this that Kate Thompson and Sarah Slater were not the same person. This was Chamlee's conclusion too (see Lincoln's Assassins, p. 71).
John
RE: Atzerodt Confession - L Verge - 02-19-2017 02:36 PM
We need to get Jane Singer back on the forum to discuss the Kate Thompson, Kate Brown, Sarah Slater confusion. She has done extensive research on these females. I believe John Stanton's theory is that Jacob Thompson used his wife's identity to cross the border and get to D.C. We carried at least one article in the Surratt Courier on this a number of years ago. We then had a member of the Surratt Society who was descended from Thompson's line and pooh-poohed the idea.
Jerry, please don't discount the intelligence of David Herold. He attended Rittenhouse Academy and Georgetown College, both top-notch schools in the 19th century, and while frivolous in many things, knew enough to work in a pharmacy and also to give a very tricky confession to the authorities in 1865. His cleverness in the latter was highly regarded by Hall and Tidwell. Some other authors have discredited him because of his father's insistence that he not be the executor of his estate. That does not prove that David was mentally incapable of doing it. I can see the young man just not wanting to take the time to sit down and deal with the legalities of settling a will -- hunting and fishing was more fun.
RE: Atzerodt Confession - Gene C - 02-19-2017 03:42 PM
Any one else confused?
From what I can understand, between the rumors and relations, everybody in southern Maryland over the age of 12 was either involved in Lincoln's kidnapping/assassination plot or knew someone who was. They had some knowledge, of someone and some kind of story, of some kind of plot, against Abraham Lincoln. Do you believe all of them, some of them, or none of them. Rumors and rumors of rumors. Is it from a reliable source, unreliable source, or an unknown source? Is the source First hand, second, hand, or sleight of hand?
Is this a new plot, an old plot that never went anywhere, a recycled old story with some new changes with it's retelling to make it sound new. An overactive imagination, countryside gossip, sub-urban legend? He said, she said, ghostly whispers on foggy evening heard in front of a fire on a Saturday night, or perhaps heard at the barber shop, livery stable, post office, supermarket check out line, or church social.
Every new discovery can bring an answer to some old unsolved question, but for each new answer there are two new questions, deepening the unending mystery. Are our sources someone who talks to much when he has to much to drink, but really knows nothing at all? Someone scared trying to say what they think wants to be heard, or saying just enough to save their neck? An over zealous young man stretching the truth to gain credibility and encourage participants in an incredible scheme? The ramblings of someone who wants to read his name in the paper, wants 60 seconds of fame, to be recognized as someone important in the community, an "I know something you don't know" kind of superiority. Was all this a well thought out, highly organized plan, a last minute attempt to snatch victory from the jaws of defeat, or a poorly planned attempt that succeeds with disastrous, unanticipated consequences?
There seem to be no yes or no, true or false answers. Is it A, B, C or D? Maybe it's all of the above, none of the above, or A and B but not C.
So step right up, give the wheel a spin, your guess is as good as mine (and probably better) And be glad it wasn't your job to figure all of this out 150 years ago, with several lives on the line, based upon your findings and interpretations. Congratulations to those of you who uncover new facts, bring old discarded details to our attention, try to find answers to questions that were given up on long ago. Thanks for connecting the dots, questioning old accepted beliefs and stories, separating facts from fiction, sharing your findings, your guesses, and undergoing severe examination of your research, being bombarded with new questions, criticism, and bad manners.
And a special thanks to Mary Lincoln for her example on the use of comma's in long, run on sentences. Since by know it's obvious I couldn't read the tiny writing on the directions of the cold medicine I've been taking, 1/2 teaspoon looks a lot like 1 1/2 tablespoons, I will stop for now and sleep it off.
RE: Atzerodt Confession - SSlater - 02-19-2017 05:05 PM
Much of the confusion in Ladies names, stems from a small group of men who heard about these ladies but never met them all. (especially never saw then all at one time.)
I'll start with Josephine Brown. She was the daughter-in-law of John Potts Brown. He lived in New York but had business in the South. He developed a "Secret Line" of his own that crossed the Potomac at Leonardtown, MD. Josephine went back and forth along this line working for him. (on the side - she carried drugs.) I am not aware of any Coach lines going North from Leonardtown so she used the one that ran past the Surratt Tavern - so she met the Surratt's. The chances are - that the good old boys never met her but they heard the name. She was married to Lt. Robert W. Brown - who worked for Jacob Thompson in Montreal. Eventually she became an Agent for Jacob Thompson and followed this same route South.
Kate Thompson was the wife of Jacob Thompson. She spent the whole war in Mississippi. When he became persona-non-grata in Canada he called her to Canada. I would have to believe that the entire Confederate Security System would be watching for her. So -our good old boys now have another female to talk about. They never saw her. She went up the Mississippi River and on into Canada, but that didn't stop them. There is another side of this story. Jake Thompson decided to chat with Lincoln. so, he traveled to Washington on April 14, 1865 but Seward would not allow the meeting. He went back to Canada and heard about the assassination
on the way home. Was he "Kate" Thompson for this excursion to D. C.? There never was a Kate Brown.
That identifies Josephine, Sarah and Kate, but there was also Olivia Floyd. Let's not mention her. She also figured in with the others for more Mixed- up names.
There is more to these names -but this is a brief sorting -out.
RE: Atzerodt Confession - RJNorton - 02-19-2017 05:15 PM
Here is where I am confused. Atzerodt stated:
"Kate Thompson or Kate Brown, as she was known by both names, put up at National & was well known at Penn House. She knew all about the affair. Surratt went to Richd with her last March"
I thought it was Sarah Slater who went to Richmond in late March with John Surratt. They registered at the Spotswood Hotel and Surratt used the alias "Harry Sherman." They were in Richmond for 3 days.
RE: Atzerodt Confession - JMadonna - 02-19-2017 05:24 PM
Here is something else that confused me.
In another statement Atzerodt says:
He(Booth) took me into the room and introduced me to a young man he called James Wood. 5 This was after the fall of Richmond and two or three days before the President was killed and proposed to go to Richmond to open a theater if we could get passes.
"Wood" was an alias used by Powell but didn't Atzerodt already meet Powell at Gautier's the month before? If so who was this guy?
RE: Atzerodt Confession - JMadonna - 02-19-2017 06:30 PM
(02-19-2017 02:36 PM)L Verge Wrote: Jerry, please don't discount the intelligence of David Herold. He attended Rittenhouse Academy and Georgetown College, both top-notch schools in the 19th century, and while frivolous in many things, knew enough to work in a pharmacy and also to give a very tricky confession to the authorities in 1865.
Laurie, FWIW I was joking about his intelligence. I believe not only could he be devious but since he was a man with little pride who enjoyed shooting small prey, he could also be talked into murder by his hero. he was the type of young man who would do it for the glory and praise he could obtain no other way.
RE: Atzerodt Confession - L Verge - 02-19-2017 06:47 PM
(02-19-2017 06:30 PM)JMadonna Wrote:(02-19-2017 02:36 PM)L Verge Wrote: Jerry, please don't discount the intelligence of David Herold. He attended Rittenhouse Academy and Georgetown College, both top-notch schools in the 19th century, and while frivolous in many things, knew enough to work in a pharmacy and also to give a very tricky confession to the authorities in 1865.
Laurie, FWIW I was joking about his intelligence. I believe not only could he be devious but since he was a man with little pride who enjoyed shooting small prey, he could also be talked into murder by his hero. he was the type of young man who would do it for the glory and praise he could obtain no other way.
I certainly agree with your last sentence -- and I think that his father may have been to blame for creating his son's personality...
RE: Atzerodt Confession - John Fazio - 02-19-2017 09:51 PM
(02-19-2017 05:24 PM)JMadonna Wrote: Here is something else that confused me.
In another statement Atzerodt says:
He(Booth) took me into the room and introduced me to a young man he called James Wood. 5 This was after the fall of Richmond and two or three days before the President was killed and proposed to go to Richmond to open a theater if we could get passes.
"Wood" was an alias used by Powell but didn't Atzerodt already meet Powell at Gautier's the month before? If so who was this guy?
Jerry:
I have asked this question before and was told that Wood was an alias of Powell and that the reference to Wood, therefore, simply means Powell. I didn't care for the answer then and I still don't, and this despite the fact that later in the same confession, Atzerodt speaks of Wood going up to Seward's house to kill him. The problem, as you point out, is that Atzerodt had already met Powell at Gautier's and should therefore have not needed an introduction to him by Booth. Furthermore, Atzerodt knew Powell as Payne, not Wood. In his later confession of July 6. 1865, he says that "Herold and I than went to the Herndon House, Mrs. Murray's, corner of Ninth and F Streets. It was then about 8 o'clock, and saw Booth, Wood and Payne in Wood's room". Here he clearly differentiates between Wood and Payne, indicating that they were two separate people. This at least partially explains the difficulty of having an 8 o'clock meeting on the 14th in Powell's room inasmuch as we know that Powell checked out of the Herndon House at about 4:00 pm. Many theories have been advanced to explain this inconsistency (including a couple by me), but the truth may simply be that they did not meet in Powell's room, but in Wood's room. The matter is complicated further by the fact that in the earlier April 25 confession, he says that "I went up to Woods to the Navy Yard about 12 o'clock after the assassination..." Who is he talking about? Powell? I thought Powell was on his way to the Benning Road Bridge and Baltimore at or about midnight. What would he have been doing in the Navy Yard? It is, as the King of Siam said in The King and I, "a puzzlement".
John
RE: Atzerodt Confession - RJNorton - 02-20-2017 06:03 AM
(02-19-2017 09:51 PM)John Fazio Wrote: and saw Booth, Wood and Payne in Wood's room". Here he clearly differentiates between Wood and Payne, indicating that they were two separate people.
John, the copy I am looking at says ..."and I saw Booth, Wood or Payne in Wood's room."
I am seeing the word "or" not "and."
I think Atzerodt used several names for the same man - Lewis Powell. When he says "Wood or Payne" in the July 6 confession he is talking about the same person (Powell), not two separate people, IMO.
IMO, he is referring to Powell's room at the Herndon House when he calls it Wood's room.